For the sake of brevity let us try to combine two things together:
(July 2, 2015 at 12:21 pm)Aristocatt Wrote: [color=#ff6633]I have a better understanding of what your actual point is now. But this is becoming circular. When you talk about being naturally disposed to extinction, the counter is "We have IVF treatment" This is why we got into this stupid game of insane scenarios. Also if you felt as though I were strawmanning your argument, you needed to tell me that when I asked you to affirm your position.
1. IVF: In regards to IVF I would lead you back to your very own over-consumption argument. First it may be argued this process is an indignity to one of homo orientation. As it exhibits there inherent inability for them to procreate without the intervention of a third party to their relationship. Second, the process consumes far more resources at a much greater cost than natural procreation:
For those of the gay persuasion the procedure in question involves more than a mere donation at a cost of approximately $70k (in AZ)
http://www.circlesurrogacy.com/costs/5
Standard Costs
Gestational Carrier Related Professional Fees $22,000.00
Second installment agency fee (nonrefundable upon execution of Carrier Agreement) $8,500.00
Discount for signing up within 3 months of consultation -$2,000.00
Fee for unlimited rematches with gestational carriers $2,500.00
First installment agency fee (nonrefundable upon execution of Agreement for Services) $13,000.00
Gestational Carrier Related Legal Fees, Expenses and Finalization of Parental Rights $13,400.00
Carrier's independent attorney's fees (includes unlimited rematches) $1,200.00
Intended Parent(s)'s attorney fees for Carrier Agreement (incl. unlimited rematches) $2,500.00
Office expenses $750.00
Fees for legal proceedings for one child, including fees for Circle legal supervision. $7,000.00
Trust Administration $1,950.00
Gestational Carrier Screening Costs $700.00
Unlimited psychological testing for Carriers $600.00
Criminal history inquiry fees $100.00
Gestational Carrier Compensation and Other Expenses $29,600.00
Carrier's base fee (9 payments starting with heartbeat ultrasound) $25,000.00
Carrier's IVF transfer payments (for completion of each embryo transfer procedure) $500.00
Carrier's maternity clothing allowance (paid at 3 months gestational) $500.00
Carrier's monthly allowance (in lieu of itemized costs) ($200/month est. for 12 months) $2,400.00
Carrier's post-birth bed rest (following a vaginal delivery) $1,200.00
Licensed Clinical Social Worker Support Fees $3,500.00
TOTAL Excluding 3rd Party Medical and Insurance Services
$69,200.00
Sure sounds like conservation of resources to me in comparison to natural procreation.
In regards to those of the lesbian persuasion:
http://www.azfertility.com/ivf-in-vitro-...n-fees.php
IVF Flat Fee Pricing
Pricing Options Age < 35 Age 35 - 37 Age 38 - 40
1 Cycle $10,000 $10,000 $10,000
2 Cycle Package * $17,000 $17,500 $18,250
3 Cycle Package * $22,250 $23,000 $23,750
IVF Fees Not Included In Flat Fee Pricing (fees per cycle):
Diagnostic Testing Approx $3,000 - $4,000
Fresh Cycle Medications Approx. $5,000 - $6,000
ICSI (Simple/Complex) $1,525 / $2,100
Embryo Cryopreservation 1-5 Embryos & 1 Year Storage $500 (Refunded if no embryos to freeze)
Embryo Cryopreservation 6+ Embryos & 1 Year Storage $250 each additional group of 5
Frozen Embryo Transfer with Assisted Hatching $4,000
Frozen Cycle Medications $3,500 - $4,000
Note that for IVF alone it is fees per cycle (meaning per try) so approximately $30k per try.
So how about we drop this bullshit argument that IVF is a ready replacement for natural procreation. Obviously, the process takes far more resources at far greater expense than natural procreation (and I did not even list the success rates of viable conception and birth which are below that of natural procreation). In short it is an inferior (and in many ways unsustainable) way to procreate and is also one requiring many external conditions to the procreative act not met in various places throughout the world. Where as the external conditions of natural procreation seem to be satisfied the world over (almost as if it were meant to be that way).
https://youtu.be/oh4HDFIrF-E?t=7m20s
7:20 to 8:30 if you would.
Furthermore, the mere price of the procedure will exclude most same sex couples from utilizing IVF; now it may be they will sue for a fundamental right to have children whereby the state not paying for their IVF and Surrogacy denies their person dignity and thus all of us will have to pay for their procedures. I am waiting for it given existing suits for state payment for sex changes which have already occurred.
(July 2, 2015 at 12:21 pm)Aristocatt Wrote: (1) More specifically, you don't get to ignore the effects of procreation when you are talking about if procreation is good or bad. The effects of procreation are exactly what we use to determine if it is good or bad. Consumption is one of those effects. You suggest that your premise does not have any additional claims. It however does. It makes the claim that IVF treatment would be unavailable. This requires additional assumptions beyond that naturalistic ones you are attempting to make your argument about. The premise I gave you is still valid, regardless of if you like it.
Regarding the subject of over-consumption and population alone. I did not ignore it. First, I pointed out lack of population is already a problem in the world which countries are trying to deal with (so it turns out this issue is not as ridiculous as you would like to believe. Funny enough the countries hurting the most are those who thought over-population was a problem before; namely the US, Western Europe, Russia, and Asia). Second, introduction of over-consumption was an externality (as it does not have to do with procreation, but rather consumption) brought forth as justification for procreation being negative. Response to this externality was made in terms of capitalistic forces (supply and demand means prices for resources will go up thereby pricing out parties to resources as financial barriers to resources) and militaristic forces (military conflict for resources leading to great loss of human life in a short period will further curtail the population and will act as physical barriers to resources). The natural results of lack of resources (due to financial or physical barriers to acquisition) on fertility, miscarriage, and infant mortality will lead to substantial decreases in the rate of population growth. All of these external factors serve to offset your over-consumption by over-population externality.
Furthermore, the argument to over-consumption by means of over-population has been touted since the early 1800s as has served as nothing more than a veiled argument of racism. Margaret Sanger argued over-consumption by over-population in regards to her pro-birth control stance. What most do not know is she argued birth control for minorities only and stated that any white woman who used birth control or had an abortion should be punished as committing a crime against her own race. Historically those most inclined to believe this argument of over-consumption by means of over-population are middle class and of western European ancestry who tend to believe those who are below middle class and/or are of latin, african, or asian ancestry are over-populating the planet and will end up consuming like they do to the detriment of all (rather than realizing they over consume and should consume less to the benefit of all). As stated early; over-consumption is not a procreation problem it is an externality to the argument of procreation that is readily offset by any number of externailities such as those I already listed, as well as increase production, efficiency, or asteroid harvesting. Oh, and we cannot forget interplanetary colonization
