(July 7, 2015 at 8:44 am)robvalue Wrote: If it was so important to him, he could have run it as a simulation and watched it (this pointless Earth scenario). That would have saved putting us poor saps through it like so many wet flannel sock puppets with insides.

But no, it's no fun unless he knows someone is really suffering. What a douche.

Wet flannel sock puppets? You have such a way with words. That one will go down in history.

The question is answered at length here:

Is There Free Will in Heaven?
Fr. William Saunders
http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/FRWILL.htm

Why thank you, very kind Rhonda

Yeah, it about sums up how I feel right about now. All flannelly.

(July 6, 2015 at 7:47 pm)Rhondazvous Wrote: I know most of you don’t believe in Heaven, but for the sake of argument, let’s imagine for a moment that we do.  Only if there is a Heaven can I take you to the logical conclusion I point out here.

You may have heard Christians convoluted explanation for why their god allows so much suffering in this world. Freewill, they tell us. In order for us to have freewill, god had to allow us to choose evil.  To that we might ask why did god think that it was worth all this suffering to give us freewill? To this, they tell us that without freewill, it would be impossible for man to truly love god

DIGRESSION: Is there not something sadistic about a being that would put others in harm’s way just so they can prove their love? Something insecure, you might say?  I‘ll not make that argument here, but keep it in mind.

Here, I raise the question will humans have freewill in Heaven? If so then the same possibility of evil and suffering will exist. What will the consequence be for those who sin in Heaven? What were the consequences for the angels that sinned?

If true love and joy could not exist in Eden without freewill and the possibility of sin then it cannot exist in Heaven. In fact, there will not only be the possibility of sin, but it is probable, even inevitable that many humans will sin in heaven.

Every human who goes to Heaven will know at least one person who did not make it. A spouse, a parent, a child, a friend. The book of Revelation tells us the smoke of their torment will go up before the Lord forever. For the humans in Heaven, this will be a constant reminder of something sinister in god. This will be worse than slavery. The African slaves could not choose their actions and were often forced to smile at the most gruesome treatments, but at least they had the privacy of their own feelings and thoughts. In the presence of a god who knows our thoughts before we think them, we wouldn't even have that. We would be like zombies. If we have any freewill at all, we will seek to be free from such mental tyranny.

At this point, Christians will say that we will be so grateful for the sacrifice of Jesus that we won't want to rebel. Sacrifice alone cannot sustain gratitude. If anything, sacrifice with strings of obligation attached to it evokes resentment.

The smoke of the torment of our loved ones will go up as an eternal reminder to us of what will happen if we sin. Gratitude cannot be sustained under threat. Gratitude and love will die and in their place will arise fear and hatred of this massa who cannot be resisted. Our fear and hatred will be known and surely punished. Since there will be no more sacrifice for sin the only punishment will be eternal damnation. The only way god can avoid eventually having to damn the entire human race is to take away our freewill.

It doesn't help to say that we will be perfect beings who won't have a sin nature that can feel fear, resentment and rebellion. The angels who rebelled in Heaven, not just the ones who rebelled with Satan but also the ones who in Jude left their first estate and married human women, were not descendants of Adam and had no sin nature but they did have freewill. Paul tells us we will be like the angels. If the angels could rebel then we will be able to as well.

Again, if god is able to let us have free will but still keep us from sin in Heaven then he could have done it in Eden and he could have kept the angels from rebelling. When Christians resort to the god can do anything answer, they defeat the god had to allow sin answer.

No, We as living souls will not have 'free will' in Heaven.

You should ask if the bible says we have free will now?
That answer would also be no.

It says we are either slaves to God, or Slaves to sin. So if you are going to compare apples to apples you need to take all of what the bible says. It says we are going to serve/reap Sin or God in this life and the next as slaves. 'freewill' is a greek construct, not a biblical one.

Christ says 'come unto me those who are weak and heavy laiden for my yoke is easy and my burden light.'

In essence Sin= the slavery assoceiated with bondage and suffering
While Christ offers a light load and a mild temperament. Imagine how Joseph was a slave to pharaoh, and ruled over all of Egypt in his name, rather than a black man being beaten in a cotton field in a southern state 300 years ago.
Remember per our discussion in the slave thread the bible identifies both men as slaves. Meaning the bible's definition is far broader than your own.

(July 7, 2015 at 9:30 am)robvalue Wrote: Why thank you, very kind Rhonda

Yeah, it about sums up how I feel right about now. All flannelly.

And wet too? Pobre cito.

Didn't you say somewhere you have a wife? And Stim thins having a woman will answer his problems. Somebody ought to tell him the truth.

(July 7, 2015 at 10:00 am)Drich Wrote: Remember per our discussion in the slave thread the bible identifies both men as slaves. Meaning the bible's definition is far broader than your own.

Jesus Fuck! Even in a thread specifically created to discuss heaven.

(July 7, 2015 at 10:00 am)Drich Wrote: No, We as living souls will not have 'free will' in Heaven.

You should ask if the bible says we have free will now?
That answer would also be no.

It says we are either slaves to God, or Slaves to sin. So if you are going to compare apples to apples you need to take all of what the bible says. It says we are going to serve/reap Sin or God in this life and the next as slaves. 'freewill' is a greek construct, not a biblical one.

Christ says 'come unto me those who are weak and heavy laiden for my yoke is easy and my burden light.'

In essence Sin= the slavery assoceiated with bondage and suffering
While Christ offers a light load and a mild temperament. Imagine how Joseph was a slave to pharaoh, and ruled over all of Egypt in his name, rather than a black man being beaten in a cotton field in a southern state 300 years ago.
Remember per our discussion in the slave thread the bible identifies both men as slaves. Meaning the bible's definition is far broader than your own.

So if we're not going to have freewill in Heaven and we're slaves now, that makes going through all the trouble of guaranteeing our freewill in the Garden of Eden even more idiotic. You make your god look like a real scream.

At least with sin I'm having more fun, and sleeping with a clearer conscience. I'll stick with sin.

(July 6, 2015 at 7:56 pm)Chad32 Wrote: When talking about a guy that equates thoughts with actions, you know your ability to even think dissenting thoughts is going to be removed. Without the ability to think differently than what the guy in charge thinks, there will be no freedom of thought. You like what he wants you to like. You dislike what he wants you to dislike. You don't even so much as think about disagreeing with him. We would all think exactly the same as everyone else, because everyone thinks what Yahweh wants them to think.

This is what I was taught. Once you enter heaven you won't have feel negative emotions like envy or anger. It sounds like the people in heaven will be a state of mindless ecstasy where they can only praise god. It sounds nightmarish

(July 7, 2015 at 10:16 am)Rhondazvous Wrote:

(July 7, 2015 at 10:00 am)Drich Wrote: No, We as living souls will not have 'free will' in Heaven.

You should ask if the bible says we have free will now?
That answer would also be no.

It says we are either slaves to God, or Slaves to sin. So if you are going to compare apples to apples you need to take all of what the bible says. It says we are going to serve/reap Sin or God in this life and the next as slaves. 'freewill' is a greek construct, not a biblical one.

Christ says 'come unto me those who are weak and heavy laiden for my yoke is easy and my burden light.'

In essence Sin= the slavery assoceiated with bondage and suffering
While Christ offers a light load and a mild temperament. Imagine how Joseph was a slave to pharaoh, and ruled over all of Egypt in his name, rather than a black man being beaten in a cotton field in a southern state 300 years ago.
Remember per our discussion in the slave thread the bible identifies both men as slaves. Meaning the bible's definition is far broader than your own.

So if we're not going to have freewill in Heaven and we're slaves now, that makes going through all the trouble of guaranteeing our freewill in the Garden of Eden even more idiotic. You make your god look like a real scream.

Drich, what is the point in humans being on earth in the first place?