(October 10, 2010 at 1:42 am)Minimalist Wrote: That could be because

2 Corinthians 11

32
At Damascus, the governor under King Aretas guarded the city of Damascus, in order to seize me,
33
but I was lowered in a basket through a window in the wall and escaped his hands.

Aretas III ruled Damascus from c 84 - 64 BC. Whoever (probably Marcion) compiled this bullshit under the name of "Paul" didn't seem to know much about Judaean history in the first centuries BC and AD. Probably because Marcion was from Sinope in Asia Minor.

2 Corinthians 11:

32 In Damascus the governor under Aretas the king kept the city of the Damascenes' with a garrison, desirous to apprehend me:

33 And through a window in a basket was I let down by the wall, and escaped his hands.

Aretus IV Philopatris, King of the Nabataeans, is the more likely candidate in this incident mentioned by Paul.
Aretas IV ruled from around 9 B.C. to 40 A.D. He was also the father in law to Herod Antipas, (Tetrarch).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aretas_IV_Philopatris

What about Christian apologists who mention the writings of Josephus?? Was he reliable??

(October 10, 2010 at 1:42 pm)dave4shmups Wrote: What about Christian apologists who mention the writings of Josephus?? Was he reliable??

Quote:What about Christian apologists who mention the writings of Josephus??

Often times, people on both sides of a debate reference the same sources to add weight to their arguments. Josephus wrote very little about the early Christians. He did mention John the Baptist, James the Just, brother of Jesus, and Jesus. There remains some controversey about the validity of authorship regarding possible insertions into his original works...although the writings mentioning John the Baptist, James, and Jesus seem to point to Josephus as the author.

Quote:Was he reliable??

Some critics would argue that Josephus was a traitor and Roman collaborator. I don't know if that would determine whether or not he was reliable. What's your opinion?

(October 10, 2010 at 1:42 pm)dave4shmups Wrote: What about Christian apologists who mention the writings of Josephus?? Was he reliable??

Would you excuse me for a moment...



...OK, I'm back. Sorry but I have to chuckle every time some Christian apologist with a straight face tries to use Josephus as a witness for Jesus.

The Testimonium Flavianum is a rank forgery, as admitted to by the Christian apologists themselves. These words, "rank forgery" come from an 18th century Bishop who apparently couldn't use it in good conscience as evidence for his own religion. In this paragraph, suspiciously rammed between two completely unrelated paragraphs, contains apparent ravings by Josephus as he praises Jesus as the messiah (something a Jew wouldn't do) and in almost rapid-fire format, rattles off every bullet point in Christian theology.

Confronted with this reality, even the most notoriously sleazy apologists like Lee Strobel and Josh McDowell will not try to claim that the TF is completely authentic. Forced to admit that it seems to be "tampered with", they try to argue that this is the accidental result of zealous Christian scribes. They then try to remove the blatant un-Jewish aspects of the TF and act like they've discovered some sort of unadulterated version of what Josephus "probably" wrote. In reality, there is zero evidence that any of it was authentic.

The so-called "Jamesian reference" seems more likely to have been written by a Jew but we must remember that "Jesus" was a common name and Josephus later tells us he's speaking of Jesus Bar Damneus. Additionally, the phrase that supposedly refers to Jesus Christ is an introduction of James as "brother of Jesus, James" which seems odd since, if this is a reference to Jesus Christ, Josephus hasn't told us who he is. If this is not a reference to Bar Damneus, than the reader would have asked "brother of WHO"?

Josephus, you're excused from the witness stand.

(October 10, 2010 at 1:42 pm)dave4shmups Wrote: What about Christian apologists who mention the writings of Josephus?? Was he reliable??

Josephus is reliable at times. Excluded from that are

a) he is talking about his own shameful conduct during the Galilean campaign, or,

b) when he is kissing the asses of his Roman patrons, Vespasian and Titus, ( which includes the siege of Masada conducted by Flavius Silva, a kisman of theirs) and

c) when he is not merely repeating bullshit he read in the Torah.


Archaeology has been able to confirm the broad outlines of Josephus' history although his "details" are no more accurate than any other ancient historian.

This is especially true when Xtian forgers inserted bullshit passages into Josephus because they were embarrassed that their god boy made no mark on history at all.

I suspect this last is what you are talking about.

---

Quote:Aretus IV Philopatris, King of the Nabataeans, is the more likely candidate in this incident mentioned by Paul.

I hate to have to break this to you but Damascus was a Roman town from 64 BC until the Byzantines finally lost it to the Arabs. Aretas IV was a hunted fugitive in 37 AD being chased by the army of the Legate of Syria, Lucius Vitellius for having attacked Herod Antipas' kingdom. The only thing that saved Aretas' ass at that time was that Tiberius died and Vitellius called off the chase to await new instructions from Caligula. Highly fucking unlikely that the Romans would then turn around and award Aretas one of the most prized pieces of commercial real estate ( Damascus was the terminus of the Silk Road) in the ancient world. In any case, no Greco-Roman or Jewish writer mentions any such transfer.

Xtian assholes assume it happened because it is mentioned in "Paul" but xtians lie a lot.

(October 10, 2010 at 6:56 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

(October 10, 2010 at 1:42 pm)dave4shmups Wrote: What about Christian apologists who mention the writings of Josephus?? Was he reliable??

Josephus is reliable at times. Excluded from that are

a) he is talking about his own shameful conduct during the Galilean campaign, or,

b) when he is kissing the asses of his Roman patrons, Vespasian and Titus, ( which includes the siege of Masada conducted by Flavius Silva, a kisman of theirs) and

c) when he is not merely repeating bullshit he read in the Torah.


Archaeology has been able to confirm the broad outlines of Josephus' history although his "details" are no more accurate than any other ancient historian.

This is especially true when Xtian forgers inserted bullshit passages into Josephus because they were embarrassed that their god boy made no mark on history at all.

I suspect this last is what you are talking about.

---

Quote:Aretus IV Philopatris, King of the Nabataeans, is the more likely candidate in this incident mentioned by Paul.

I hate to have to break this to you but Damascus was a Roman town from 64 BC until the Byzantines finally lost it to the Arabs. Aretas IV was a hunted fugitive in 37 AD being chased by the army of the Legate of Syria, Lucius Vitellius for having attacked Herod Antipas' kingdom. The only thing that saved Aretas' ass at that time was that Tiberius died and Vitellius called off the chase to await new instructions from Caligula. Highly fucking unlikely that the Romans would then turn around and award Aretas one of the most prized pieces of commercial real estate ( Damascus was the terminus of the Silk Road) in the ancient world. In any case, no Greco-Roman or Jewish writer mentions any such transfer.

Quote:Xtian assholes assume it happened because it is mentioned in "Paul" but xtians lie a lot.

Quote:Xtian assholes assume it happened because it is mentioned in "Paul" but xtians lie a lot.

...and you assume it didn't happen because it is mentioned by "Paul".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aretas_IV_Philopatris

It's all a conspiracy I tells ya to silence the Truth! A big, big conspiracy on part of anyone who wrote except the True Believers ™. Heathen Romans!11!

No, I assume it didn't happen because no historian mentions it AND it makes no fucking sense from a Roman political/economic point of view.

I have heard some whoppers whipped up by xtian apologists for this one...including some sort of "settlement of the east" by Caligula in which Damascus was awarded to Aretas.

Here's a map:




Note Damascus in the upper right corner. Nabatea is off the map to the south. It would be like the US telling Mexico: "Hey, sorry about the Mexican War. You can have Colorado back. Oh, but we're keeping Arizona and New Mexico so good luck getting there, assholes."

To xtians, of course, this makes perfect sense because they are desperate for any straw they can hang onto for their fairy tales to be true. In the real world, it doesn't work.

(October 10, 2010 at 6:42 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote:

(October 10, 2010 at 1:42 pm)dave4shmups Wrote: What about Christian apologists who mention the writings of Josephus?? Was he reliable??

Would you excuse me for a moment...



...OK, I'm back. Sorry but I have to chuckle every time some Christian apologist with a straight face tries to use Josephus as a witness for Jesus.

The Testimonium Flavianum is a rank forgery, as admitted to by the Christian apologists themselves. These words, "rank forgery" come from an 18th century Bishop who apparently couldn't use it in good conscience as evidence for his own religion. In this paragraph, suspiciously rammed between two completely unrelated paragraphs, contains apparent ravings by Josephus as he praises Jesus as the messiah (something a Jew wouldn't do) and in almost rapid-fire format, rattles off every bullet point in Christian theology.

Confronted with this reality, even the most notoriously sleazy apologists like Lee Strobel and Josh McDowell will not try to claim that the TF is completely authentic. Forced to admit that it seems to be "tampered with", they try to argue that this is the accidental result of zealous Christian scribes. They then try to remove the blatant un-Jewish aspects of the TF and act like they've discovered some sort of unadulterated version of what Josephus "probably" wrote. In reality, there is zero evidence that any of it was authentic.

The so-called "Jamesian reference" seems more likely to have been written by a Jew but we must remember that "Jesus" was a common name and Josephus later tells us he's speaking of Jesus Bar Damneus. Additionally, the phrase that supposedly refers to Jesus Christ is an introduction of James as "brother of Jesus, James" which seems odd since, if this is a reference to Jesus Christ, Josephus hasn't told us who he is. If this is not a reference to Bar Damneus, than the reader would have asked "brother of WHO"?

Josephus, you're excused from the witness stand.

Ah, having recently ditched my Christian faith, I didn't know any of that, so thank you! Christians also say that there is no Biblical claim that archeology has proven false-I know this is bullshit, but, again, I'm new to countering Christian arguments-so please do give me some examples.

Yeah Baby! In your face...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goHVqVtPe...re=related



Piccard works for priceline too??