(July 20, 2015 at 1:59 pm)Neimenovic Wrote: What exactly constitutes 'making fun' to you?

And why, do we think, do people make fun of each other?  It might seem like pure derision but I know I do it with people I care for when there is something about them that isn't sitting well with me - like Rhythm and his desire to overthrow the govmint.  (<-See, I did it again.)  But it is the wife who comes in for my constructive nudges most often.  I don't think she would miss them if I stopped expressing my caring about our relationship in this way.  In fact she would probably SAS* for a month if I would stop.  But the point is, I think it is pretty common to pick and prod in this way and when we do it it isn't necessarily motivated by a desire to be judgmental.

*

(July 20, 2015 at 1:48 pm)Whateverist the White Wrote: You know the original reason for the thread is one thing. But the reason I asked you if it offended you probably was motivated more by trying to understand how well you are separating what people think about religion from what they think about you. I doubt if any of us has a religious relative we wouldn't trade for you in a heartbeat. You are like the ideal religious person to interact with.

But .. sometimes you come off a little bit like Ms Manners. Does anyone else tell you that? Thinking and talking about what one does or should do if one cares about a person makes sense when people subscribe to the same objective moral foundation. But that is kind of in question here. While I like you a lot I have to say, I don't often think or talk about how people should behave.

Oh sure, I'm quick to call out the assholes when I'm driving but then there is a (supposedly) shared foundation for expectations provided by the vehicle code. But by and large I just don't spend much time thinking about how I and others should act. I like to be spontaneous morally.

Exploring the differences for me is fun but I don't want to go beyond what is fun for you. Do we need a safe word?

First, thanks for the kind words.

As far as talking about how people should behave, the only reason I did so is because Rhythm asked me about it, and we got into conversation in regards to what would or would not be appropriate. I guess I should have more emphasized that it was "my opinion" rather than just saying it.

But yes, I stand by it as my opinion. I think if you care about someone, making fun of them to their face is a much less caring thing to do than to sit down and respectfully tell them that you are concerned about their beliefs. This seems pretty basic to me and I can't imagine anyone legitimately thinking differently, but nonetheless, I should have presented it as my opinion. So I apologize.

Now to address your "separating what people think about religion from what they think about you", here's what I think.

Let's say I think Ugg boots are the most hideous, ridiculous article of clothing I have ever seen. Not only that, but I think they are also bad because they use wool from sheep who are treated very very badly.

Let's say I have a friend who loves them and wears them ALL the time.

Should me thinking Ugg boots are awful be offenssive to her? Obviously not.

Should it be offensive to her if I sat down with her and respectfully told her I think they just don't look good on her and I'm against them because they are attached to inhumane treatment of animals? Also, no.

But if I pointed at her, and laughed, and said some nasty stuff like "why the hell are you wearing those God awful f---ing boots?? They look ridiculous, and apparently you're ok with the mistreatment of animals, which makes me sick!"

If she got offended by this, would it be reasonable for me to say "Hey, what's your problem?? I wasn't making fun of you, just your clothes!"

Now keep in mind that religion to a devout person is much more a part of who they are than a pair of shoes they wear. So again, it really doesn't make any sense to make fun of someone's religion to their face and then say "oh I wasn't making fun of you, I was just making fun of your most core values and principles, what you stand for, and the things you hold most dear in your heart."

Does that make any sense?

Blaming what you volunteered on me.......jesus, christ.  You know when I make comments like :


"Oh tell me more about how we should behave, great and mighty Cathol" - that's not -actually- a request......

I'm hoping to nudge you into a moment of self awareness via snark. Clearly, I've failed.

The question I -did- ask you, so far as I recall, remains unanswered.

(July 20, 2015 at 1:59 pm)Neimenovic Wrote:

(July 20, 2015 at 11:25 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: If my beliefs hurt your feelings, then I won't talk about them in front of you.

And like I said in another post, if you truly think one of your friend's beliefs is harmful, I would advice you to sit down with them, and in a respectful conversation, tell them your concerns... and do so just one time. Bugging someone about it over and over again is not your place. And making fun of them to your friend's face, is just rude.

It really is that simple.

Oh, gee, I was dying to know what my place is. Thanks.

What exactly constitutes 'making fun' to you?

Let me ask you this.

How would you feel about it if a religious friend of yours was constantly on your butt about your atheism? Wouldn't you feel it's none of their business and not their place to keep bugging you about it?

What I'm saying is that it's the same thing the other way around. You would be doing the exact same thing if you kept bugging someone about their theism.

(July 20, 2015 at 2:18 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(July 20, 2015 at 1:59 pm)Neimenovic Wrote: Oh, gee, I was dying to know what my place is. Thanks.

What exactly constitutes 'making fun' to you?

Let me ask you this.

How would you feel about it if a religious friend of yours was constantly on your butt about your atheism? Wouldn't you feel it's none of their business and not their place to keep bugging you about it?

What I'm saying is that it's the same thing the other way around. You would be doing the exact same thing if you kept bugging someone about their theism.

That constitutes making fun to you?

(July 20, 2015 at 2:21 pm)Neimenovic Wrote:

(July 20, 2015 at 2:18 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Let me ask you this.

How would you feel about it if a religious friend of yours was constantly on your butt about your atheism? Wouldn't you feel it's none of their business and not their place to keep bugging you about it?

What I'm saying is that it's the same thing the other way around. You would be doing the exact same thing if you kept bugging someone about their theism.

That constitutes making fun to you?

I'm not specifying whether it's done by making fun or not. I'm just saying in general, to be constantly on someone's butt about their beliefs, or lack thereof. Regardless of if it's done by making fun or just by telling them.

What constitutes making fun to you? Fucking hell.

(July 20, 2015 at 2:24 pm)Neimenovic Wrote: What constitutes making fun to you? Fucking hell.

"tease, laugh at, or joke about in a mocking or unkind way."

^per webster.

TO YOU.

Fucking christ. What, exactly specifically do you mean by making fun of your beliefs? Does scrutiny fall under that? Does pointing out their irrationality?

(July 20, 2015 at 2:18 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: How would you feel about it if a religious friend of yours was constantly on your butt about your atheism?

I wouldn't be friends with them.

Quote:Wouldn't you feel it's none of their business and not their place to keep bugging you about it?

No, it's not that. It's that they're wrong. You keep talking like this is an equivalent thing. Oh I have my beliefs and you have yours. No, it isn't like that. Fact is, if one of my friends believed in bullshit, I would call them out on it every single time they brought it up. I wouldn't pester them incessantly, it's not exactly top of my to do list, but if I was actually friends with someone who believed in god, and I respected them, I'd absolutely call them out and I'd have no qualms being mean about it. Then again, I don't think I have any friends who are so sensitive that they couldn't take it.

And you keep using this bullshit analogy with clothing. It's not even remotely the same thing. Fashion is about nothing more than opinions, someone believing in bullshit is about a whole lot more. There's the actual aspect of whether they're right, whether what they believe makes any sense, whether what they believe is poisonous, whether what they believe is childish.

I take the piss out of my mates all the time for trivial shit. If they're being a dickhead I'll call them one. IMO that's what a real friend does. We don't all live in this pussy world that you do where you're scared of upsetting your friends by ridiculing them, over here it's called banter. Sometimes it's harsh, sometimes it's just in jest, but a lot of the time there's real truth to it. I don't know, maybe it's a cultural thing, I know all of my friends would call me a stupid cunt back if I called them one. They certainly wouldn't cry and whine about it like you are now.

Quote:What I'm saying is that it's the same thing the other way around. You would be doing the exact same thing if you kept bugging someone about their theism.

It's just plain not. One side of the argument has facts, and evidence, the otherside has wishy washy thinking. Ain't no friend of mine gonna be walking about a zombified numpty.