atheism and children

[QuarkDriven]

A. I definitely would love to have children.. My girlfriend and I have spoken about it several times...

She's on birth control but it seemed that she was getting sick (as in morninc sickness) and we read cases about women getting pregnant while on this type of BC so we went out and bought tests.... It was negative and to say the least, I was bummed she wasnt pregnant.

Oh that's sad! Keep trying! Make like bunnies!

We plan to have within the next two years

[Dystopia]

I am neutral to the idea of having kids but my girlfriend wants 4 children.

[Kitty Galore]

I haven't read the whole thread, will catch up in time. In my case, I have 2 boys who I love dearly and they are 8 years apart. I worked in day care and as a nanny as they were growing up, then at my youngest son's elementary school till he passed me up and was in middle school. I adore kids. I would work with them now if I could. Terrible two's are my favorite! My mother, on the other hand, wasn't much into being a parent. I was mostly raised by my loosely Lutheran grandparents.

[Pyrrho]

My objection is to there being a "default type of thinking" on the question at all.  The simple fact is, one cannot know in advance if a child's life will be more good than bad.  What one is doing is taking a chance and, presumably, hoping for the best.  The thing is, one is taking a chance on someone else's life, not one's own.  And that is why it is morally problematic.

Wait, what is morally problematic? Having kids, or choosing not to abort them?

(sorry, just making sure I understand)

I meant the decision to have children.  I made no comment on the morality of abortion.

When you decide to have a child, presumably, you are hoping that the child's life will be more good than bad, right?  But, of course, you cannot know in advance that that will be the case.  Maybe it will be, maybe it won't.  The thing is, you are taking a chance not with your life, but with someone else's life (your child's life).  It might be that it works out okay, but you are gambling with someone else's future when you make your decision.  That gambling with someone else's future is morally problematic.

To make the idea more clear to you, suppose I were to do something that potentially affected your future happiness, such that you could be very happy, or very unhappy, or anything in between.  And imagine I do this without your consent.  Would you regard my action as morally okay?  

The thing is, that is EXACTLY what one is doing when one decides to have a child.  One is gambling with the future of someone else, without their consent.

[KevinM1]

I picked B.  Disability and the logistics that go with it aside, I simply don't have the patience to be a parent.  It's not a desirable state of being, IMO, especially in the early poopy/pukey/generally sticky and stinky and crying stages.  I'm perfectly content being an uncle since I can hand the children back to their parents once they get on my nerves.

You shouldn't let disability stop you! Go talk to some parents with disabilities. It sure as hell isn't stopping me !  Come hell or high water I will have a mini me!  Besides there's always IVF  if your swimmers can't quite manage I'm not sure sure if your bladder issues mean reproductive issues too. I don't have a weenie! And the poop and pee doesn't really matter when they're your gremlins.

Well, like I said, I don't have the patience to be a parent.  At all.  I get frustrated and increasingly short with my niece and nephew after about an hour or so worth of a visit.  Kids just aren't for me.

EDIT: I've never wanted kids. Even as a child, other kids annoyed me. I don't really have any paternal instincts. I mean, I love my niece and nephew, but I'm not especially drawn to them or anything. They're too high maintenance at their current ages for me to really enjoy being around them.

[robvalue]

This is such an unpopular position, one people get really arsey about with me if it happens to come up in some bizarre conversation.

If people were totally comfortable with their position I don't know why they need to lash out defensively at me because of it (as some people have done before).

Weirdly enough, one of my brothers feels exactly the same way (independently so).

Don't worry, I'm not going to go around playing V-goalie! It's not my decision to make what anyone else does with regards to having kids. And as long as I don't know your address, your kids will probably be fine

[Catholic_Lady]

This is such an unpopular position, one people get really arsey about with me if it happens to come up in some bizarre conversation.

If people were totally comfortable with their position I don't know why they need to lash out defensively at me because of it (as some people have done before).

Weirdly enough, one of my brothers feels exactly the same way (independently so).

I can't say I agree with yours and pyrrho's position that having kids is an immoral injustice to them, lol, but I definitely respect your right to have that position and there is absolutely 0 reason for me to get upset at you over it.

I don't really understand those who get upset at others for thinking a certain thing is morally wrong. As long as it doesn't take away anyone's basic rights, then there is no reason why it should make me angry.

[robvalue]

I don't expect people to agree with me that it's morally questionable, what I'm surprised at is that some people don't think it has any moral consideration involved at all. (I'm not talking about you, I don't know how you feel!)

I'm happy that you're able to respect my position

In my experience, people who suddenly get angry about subjects are covering up for insecurity. This has been the case on many, many issues.

[Javaman]

My wife and I have two boys (5* and 7) and all the standard cliches about how kids are equally wonderful and exasperating apply.

Your comment about atheists being "anti-kids" is the sort of comment that cements my opinion that anecdotal evidence is not very useful most of the time.

On a side note, my wife and I are an infertile couple (well actually it's just me) and both of our children were conceived through IVF.

The teachings with regards to IVF of your beloved Church piss me off. If a Catholic ever suggests to me that my beautiful, amazing boys are the sinful byproduct of immoral and illicit acts, or that we are somehow a lesser family, I will punch them square in the nose.

This is just one of the many things about the Catholic Church that make me greatly appreciate Minimalist's sig.

*technically 4.92 yrs old, but we're already planning the birthday part, so I'm calling him 5.

See, and that's the strange part to me. You get angry at people who think IVF is not moral, but Pyrrho (and others here) just straight up said they think having kids is immoral and that they look down on people who have kids. No outrage there?

First off, I haven't actually read through the other thread where Pyrrho and others allegedly made those comments. As a general rule, I only respond to comments I've actually read or heard others make. Argument by hearsay is just not my style.

And no, I don't get automatically outraged when other people have a different opinion about an issue that matters to me. But you seem to be conflating two separate issues. Based on what you've said, Pyrrho isn't interested in the precise method of reproduction (good old fashioned fucking vs. IVF), he has an issue with reproduction itself. Totally different discussion.

For what it's worth, I think it's rather disingenuous of you to try manipulate my comments into a discussion about what some unrelated poster said.

Plus, as far as I know, Pyrrho hasn't actively tried to stop couples from reproducing using non-fucking methods, like IVF. The Catholic Church has tried to use it's influence to prohibit reproduction by IVF. It's one thing to hold an opinion on an issue: it's quite another to try and make it public policy.

So, CL, you agree with your church that masturbation and IVF are immoral? Don't deflect to Pyrrho (an others here), just answer the question.

Pyrrho, I'm not going after you here at all. Frankly, I find it a bit annoying that Catholic_Lady has evaded my main complaint about the Catholic Church's doctrine on IVF by trying to focus the attention on your opinion of reproduction.

[Pyrrho]

My wife and I have two boys (5* and 7) and all the standard cliches about how kids are equally wonderful and exasperating apply.

Your comment about atheists being "anti-kids" is the sort of comment that cements my opinion that anecdotal evidence is not very useful most of the time.

On a side note, my wife and I are an infertile couple (well actually it's just me) and both of our children were conceived through IVF.

The teachings with regards to IVF of your beloved Church piss me off. If a Catholic ever suggests to me that my beautiful, amazing boys are the sinful byproduct of immoral and illicit acts, or that we are somehow a lesser family, I will punch them square in the nose.

This is just one of the many things about the Catholic Church that make me greatly appreciate Minimalist's sig.

*technically 4.92 yrs old, but we're already planning the birthday part, so I'm calling him 5.

See, and that's the strange part to me. You get angry at people who think IVF is not moral, but Pyrrho (and others here) just straight up said they think having kids is immoral and that they look down on people who have kids. No outrage there?

I do not see IVF as any worse than the usual method.  To me, IVF or not is irrelevant, and so my guess is that Javaman is less perturbed with me than with those who are prejudiced against that method of conception (though obviously, Javaman may speak for himself).  I do not regard Javaman's family as a lesser family from families that have produced children the usual way.  (Also, obviously, "less perturbed" does not mean "not perturbed.")

And if you are good at searching threads, you can find that some have expressed disagreement with me on my position, even if they do not bother to in this thread (though there is plenty of time for people to do that in the future, if they wish).  I recognize the fact that most people disagree with me.  If that were to influence me to change my mind, I would be committing a fallacy known as argumentum ad populum.

I do personally know someone who has a child who now regrets the decision, now thinking that the world is not a proper place to bring children into.  Of course, he does not say that to his child, as it is done and cannot be undone.  And he dearly loves his child.  Frankly, he seems to be a very good father (not that it matters for the discussion).