Hiroshima 70 years ago

[Wyrd of Gawd]

The best way to quickly end a major war is to kill all of the enemy's accessible civilians.

Reflect a bit on what you just said.

[Gawdzilla]

However, that wasn't how it worked in Japan. The military didn't care how many civilians died, or how much it fucked up the infrastructure. They wanted the entire population to die if that's what it took to save their "honor". 

The sad thing is the "bushido code" they operated under was a bastardization of the original that was foisted on them in the early '30s.

As I said before, we would have gladly killed every single person in Japan if they hadn't surrendered.  The nukes saved lives all around.

That certainly seems to be the preferred option for the "anything but the bomb" folks. I keep asking them for a plan that caused fewer casualties, and never get one that actually does so.

[Wyrd of Gawd]

In war everyone fights and everyone should be prepared to die as a consequence.  If people allow nuts to lead them then they have to pay the price for their stupidity.  So as a response strategy the first thing to do when attacked is to go after the enemy's major population centers and infrastructure.  Of course you need the proper weapon systems to do that or a fifth column in place before the shooting starts.  We were able to do that in WWII because we had long range bombers whereas the Japanese and Nazis didn't.  They thought that they were still in the 19th Century instead of the 20th Century.

[Wyrd of Gawd]

Reflect a bit on what you just said.

That's the Old Testament strategy.

[Pyrrho]

As I said before, we would have gladly killed every single person in Japan if they hadn't surrendered.  The nukes saved lives all around.

That certainly seems to be the preferred option for the "anything but the bomb" folks. I keep asking them for a plan that caused fewer casualties, and never get one that actually does so.

The Japanese were wanting to surrender earlier, but the U.S. was demanding "unconditional surrender," which the Japanese would not accept.  We could have ended the war earlier by giving a conditional surrender, which is what we got anyway with what we dishonestly called an "unconditional" surrender.  So it would have been easy to avoid the dropping of atomic bombs on Japan, as we could have had an end to the war earlier than we got.

[Gawdzilla]

That certainly seems to be the preferred option for the "anything but the bomb" folks. I keep asking them for a plan that caused fewer casualties, and never get one that actually does so.

The Japanese were wanting to surrender earlier, but the U.S. was demanding "unconditional surrender," which the Japanese would not accept.  We could have ended the war earlier by giving a conditional surrender, which is what we got anyway with what we dishonestly called an "unconditional" surrender.  So it would have been easy to avoid the dropping of atomic bombs on Japan, as we could have had an end to the war earlier than we got.

Which Japanese? The War Minister, Gen. Anami certainly wasn't interested in surrender, and he commanded the men with the guns. He was promoting the slogan "100,000,000 dead for the Emperor!" He only changed his position after the second bomb was dropped. 

However, over and above that, if an opportunity to end the war had been available it would have been taken. But it took repeated hammer blows to make the most important Japanese see the light.

[Gawdzilla]

Suggested reading: Truman and the Hiroshima Cult, or Operation Downfall: Alternative to the Bomb, or Hell to Pay or Codename Downfall: The Secret Plan to Invade Japan, or Downfall: The End of the Imperial Japanese Empire. They're all available on Amazon.

[Anomalocaris]

Did you miss the part about the Army being in control of the government and not the Navy?

Admiral Toyoda commented that he would rather his daughter marry a beggar than an army man.  The constant internecine strife between the Japanese Army and Navy was a great asset to us.

What Yamamoto envisioned did not happen but he did not call the shots.

You also have to keep in mind that Japanese army officer training, while undoubtedly produced some men of dedication and, in some narrow sense, great ability,  was also designed to produce men of staggeringly paroquial Outlook, completely ignorant of how the world outside Japan and the Japanese army works, and completely incapable of grasping how nations ought to have pursuits other than war, specifically territorial, continental war, in a narrow sense. Some actually consider such pursuits as finance, art and industrial production not geared towards war to be treasonous even in times of peace.

When the carrier core of modern Japanese navy, the kito butai, was all but annihilated in midway, which effectively ended Japan's ability to expand her defensive perimeter, and thus started the clock inexorably ticking towards Japan's final completely military defeat, the Japanese army actually failed to grasp the significance of the end of Japan's ability to conduct further strategic offensives in what is essentially a maritime war.  Tojo actually privately celebrated the defat at of the Japanese navy, thinking it would put navy in its place and let army take charge of the maritime war.

One is not far wrong to think of Japanese army leadership as effectively consisting of mean, humorous little children playing at war, and having no idea what war is really about besides  savagely bullying one's soldiers and moving pieces on a map, expecting victory will come from enemy always doing what is convenient for the Japanese army.

[Minimalist]

The inter service rivalry of MacArthur and Nimitz paled in comparison.