Dear Resident Theists

[Mystic]

 
I call it a living connection, because it's not simply conceptual, but in a way God's light and his spirit, resides within us, without God being actually in anything rather he is above all things, and above similarity. 

The Name/face of God is light with all light, light that unites all light, and God is the light of all light. This light is not simply a lifeless force, but is living knowledge, living connection of his command that is the true nature of existence and his word "be and it is". 

The Name/Face of God gives light to all things and guides them towards their destination. 

When God created the spirit, he mixed that of the light of eternal (himself) with that of the time (finite light). The mixing is such that he is with us at all times and is found in all stages, and appears to his creation through his name/face/connection. 

The light is that speaks of "attributes" of God but in reality, all attributes of God describe single reality and perfect glory/beauty, and God is without diversity but is One.

The thing is this takes "eyes of the heart" and "sight of the soul" to see.

I don't understand a word of that, but ok. Please go on.

To me it seems obvious that God is the Most Praiseworthy being possible such that he lacks no praise. All praise is to Him, and he unites all possible praise of all levels and the utmost praise of himself. 


That said, we don't know the degree of praise God deserves but we can know somethings are praiseworthy of him. 

One of these is that he would want to create the best possible beings, but with free-will involved, it's up to the best possible beings to be that, but with his grace he would lead them to do that as long as they are 100% submitting. 

It is by rational I concluded God being the ultimate praiseworthy being he is, would create infinite souls, and infinite universes, and out infinite souls there is bound to be perfect souls that have no fault. To have a fault, there had to be possibility of avoiding that, and so it's rationally possible for perfect souls to exist, and in fact, with God's grace and praiseworthy nature, infinite such souls. 

But he would not disregard the other exalted souls that fall below perfection and exalt them as well, and use them for his guidance as well.

And he would not disregard the non-exalted souls but wish to grace them as well. We humans have a great capacity of reaching high praiseworthy stations and it seems we are meant for something higher.

I believe God wants humanity to unite on the leadership of the best people on earth and out of his wisdom would always put an exalted chosen person on earth to be the best and to be the leader of humanity. 

I believe it's rational to conclude there is on the earth truthful sincere people towards God and we ought to be with these people. But these people won't be manifested without a revelation from God to unite and work upon.

The revelations of God to be seem rational to me in that we get the admonishment of God and he manifests his beautiful names through them, and shows his explanation to the design of the world as it is and why things are the way they are.

And the journey to God being unseen, it seems to me, there would be unseen guides who guide to the journey to God, and that we need to be reminded by God about this as well as unite on who these guides are.

This again shows the need of revelation. I don't think there is anything more rewarding for a human then to be the guides of other towards God and lead them through out the stages in their spiritual journey. 

This praise of honoring both the leader and those lead by him, speaks of honorable praise that we can see when reminded of, speaks of praise worthy of the Creator.

It doesn't make sense to me that God watches on as people cling to misguided leaders that teach falsehood and doesn't appoint Guides that guide by the truth and thereby establish justice to counter act the falsehood.

It also seems to me, we lack vision of light despite the light being with us and seeing it to a degree, and the only proper way see the light is through those who are his light in utmost of the universe, while it seems evident we will follow culture and our own opinions, without such guidance.

It also seems evident to me that we need a spiritual program that is obligated by God or we will fall into total decay, at least many of us, and distance ourselves from him.

It seems that God perfecting every universe with perfect souls and raising creation and testing them through them, speaks of a praise of God that to me seems to be manifesting God.

This would be the utmost help of God in raising our rank, and the test of the world with all it's evils, will seem like a beautiful grace and all trials meant to bring about gems and pearls out of rocks.

It seems to me an admonishment from God towards his path and emphasizing on this design, is also a praise I can appreciate.

So far I don't see this wisdom and praise emphasized anywhere but in the majestic Quran, in a most implicit subtle way, that speaks to the heart.

I find it's guidance in theory to be the best possible guidance. And as such as I believe God would be behind what is in theory the best possible guidance, I believe in that guidance.

[Longhorn]

Ok, thanks Mystic. I'll respond tomorrow bc I'm about to fall asleep

[Cephus]

._.

Can you LINK to a thread like that?
And why is it such a problem to do it again in this thread anyway?

Jesus fuck, come on guys. This all seems like dodging -_-

I can do it again sure.

My belief takes the following into consideration:

A connection between God and his creation exists and is known as his "Name" or "face". This is a living connection by which we can call upon God. It's also by which we get to know all beautiful names that belong to Him.

God has the ability to make a writing well beyond the capability of mortals and his creation, and surpass in eloquence and quality.

We have the ability to appreciate the writing to beyond human capability when thoroughly studied just as we can appreciate a writing to beyond our own capacity.

Now so far do you object to any of these?

I object to all of them because you're making claims without any demonstrable validity.  You have not shown that God exists or that God  created anything. You haven't shown that God has the ability to do anything at all.  That's blind faith.  You might as well be making claims about leprechauns.

[Longhorn]

To me it seems obvious that God is the Most Praiseworthy being possible such that he lacks no praise. All praise is to Him, and he unites all possible praise of all levels and the utmost praise of himself. 

That said, we don't know the degree of praise God deserves but we can know somethings are praiseworthy of him.

One of these is that he would want to create the best possible beings, but with free-will involved, it's up to the best possible beings to be that, but with his grace he would lead them to do that as long as they are 100% submitting. 

It is by rational I concluded God being the ultimate praiseworthy being he is, would create infinite souls, and infinite universes, and out infinite souls there is bound to be perfect souls that have no fault. To have a fault, there had to be possibility of avoiding that, and so it's rationally possible for perfect souls to exist, and in fact, with God's grace and praiseworthy nature, infinite such souls. 

But he would not disregard the other exalted souls that fall below perfection and exalt them as well, and use them for his guidance as well.

And he would not disregard the non-exalted souls but wish to grace them as well. We humans have a great capacity of reaching high praiseworthy stations and it seems we are meant for something higher.

I believe God wants humanity to unite on the leadership of the best people on earth and out of his wisdom would always put an exalted chosen person on earth to be the best and to be the leader of humanity.

I believe it's rational to conclude there is on the earth truthful sincere people towards God and we ought to be with these people. But these people won't be manifested without a revelation from God to unite and work upon.

The revelations of God to be seem rational to me in that we get the admonishment of God and he manifests his beautiful names through them, and shows his explanation to the design of the world as it is and why things are the way they are.

And the journey to God being unseen, it seems to me, there would be unseen guides who guide to the journey to God, and that we need to be reminded by God about this as well as unite on who these guides are.

This again shows the need of revelation. I don't think there is anything more rewarding for a human then to be the guides of other towards God and lead them through out the stages in their spiritual journey. 

This praise of honoring both the leader and those lead by him, speaks of honorable praise that we can see when reminded of, speaks of praise worthy of the Creator.

It doesn't make sense to me that God watches on as people cling to misguided leaders that teach falsehood and doesn't appoint Guides that guide by the truth and thereby establish justice to counter act the falsehood.

It also seems to me, we lack vision of light despite the light being with us and seeing it to a degree, and the only proper way see the light is through those who are his light in utmost of the universe, while it seems evident we will follow culture and our own opinions, without such guidance.

It also seems evident to me that we need a spiritual program that is obligated by God or we will fall into total decay, at least many of us, and distance ourselves from him.

It seems that God perfecting every universe with perfect souls and raising creation and testing them through them, speaks of a praise of God that to me seems to be manifesting God.

This would be the utmost help of God in raising our rank, and the test of the world with all it's evils, will seem like a beautiful grace and all trials meant to bring about gems and pearls out of rocks.

It seems to me an admonishment from God towards his path and emphasizing on this design, is also a praise I can appreciate.

So far I don't see this wisdom and praise emphasized anywhere but in the majestic Quran, in a most implicit subtle way, that speaks to the heart.

I find it's guidance in theory to be the best possible guidance. And as such as I believe God would be behind what is in theory the best possible guidance, I believe in that guidance.

Ok...I'm not about to fall asleep anymore but it doesn't make much more sense now.

There is a whole lot of 'I believe' and 'it seems to me'. I understand, but why? What makes you think that? Why does this first cause need to have the attributes of your god?
I guess I can see where you're coming from with praiseworthy, but that's already a bit of a jump. So let me rewind a little.

I'm speaking specifically from the angle of the cosmological argument, the uncaused cause. For the purpose of this discussion, I'm ignoring the logical problems with that and I accept that the universe was created by a first cause. What I'm asking for is a step by step explanation of how to get from 'a first cause' to Allah. First, how do you figure it's conscious? Why is it impossible for the universe to be created by a first cause that was not?

This is pretty much the same thing Chad was doing-ascribing some of his god's attributes to this creator by default. I don't see why, and what is the basis of that. It doesn't follow.

[robvalue]

It makes the most sense to me that the first cause, if there is one, would be the point in another timeline in another reality in which our reality manifested. This could be either this reality being switched on as a simulation with initial conditions, or else fracturing from another reality and becoming self-contained. Of course the first cause could instead be our reality popping up out of nowhere for no reason, but I'll focus on the previous idea for now.

I found it interesting pondering the simulation hypothesis. This would make the programmer (or perhaps even the computer) "god" as generally referred to. It's pretty obvious that none of the general amazing attributes that god seems to always get for free are necessarily true at all. Even if the programmer/computer has ultimate power with regard to this simulation, they have no such power in their own reality. I don't know how anyone can rule this possibility out as a "first cause" either, especially since it's one that requires a lot less assumptions than your usual ridiculous super-being.

What I found more interesting is the idea of "the supernatural", and this parent reality. What we have is a computer and a programmer who can affect our reality, but we can't affect them, or ever measure them. We are self contained (very much so if we don't literally exist) and so we can't ever "see" outside of our simulation. We could be fed information about it from within our reality, but we'd have no way to confirm what is true and what is not.

Assuming this parent reality is a standard one much like our own, and we're a simulation, does that make the parent reality supernatural in comparison to us? It's actually the best model I can think of to actually describe what the supernatural would be like. And yet I find myself thinking that they are just as natural as us, we just happen to be self-contained and have one-way interaction with this other natural world. So perhaps "nested realities" is a better term, especially since the parent reality could itself have one-way interaction with its own parent reality.

Interesting

[robvalue]

If this is a simulation, it also could have been turned on yesterday from our point of view and the history programmed to be consistent. We could never tell the difference. So the "first cause" doesn't even have to correspond with when we think the universe may have "begun". There not even be any history programmed in before a certain point, hence our difficulty trying to figure it out.

[Mystic]

Ok...I'm not about to fall asleep anymore but it doesn't make much more sense now.

There is a whole lot of 'I believe' and 'it seems to me'. I understand, but why? What makes you think that? Why does this first cause need to have the attributes of your god?
I guess I can see where you're coming from with praiseworthy, but that's already a bit of a jump. So let me rewind a little.

I'm speaking specifically from the angle of the cosmological argument, the uncaused cause. For the purpose of this discussion, I'm ignoring the logical problems with that and I accept that the universe was created by a first cause. What I'm asking for is a step by step explanation of how to get from 'a first cause' to Allah. First, how do you figure it's conscious? Why is it impossible for the universe to be created by a first cause that was not?

This is pretty much the same thing Chad was doing-ascribing some of his god's attributes to this creator by default. I don't see why, and what is the basis of that. It doesn't follow.

I told you I took the assumption that God's Name/Face/Connection exists. That we do have knowledge of Him to a degree through that.

[Whateverist]

Assuming that God exists I will now demonstrate once and for all that God is real. Assuming also that He is the most praiseworthy of beings I will go on to show that God is great, the greatest of all even. Is this then the essence of your longer post, MK?

[Longhorn]

I told you I took the assumption that God's Name/Face/Connection exists. That we do have knowledge of Him to a degree through that.

Ok, but how do you figure your god and the first cause are synonymous? How do you figure it had to be your god? Why couldn't it have been anything else?

So your response is because being the creator is one of Allah's attributes? But there are dozens of creator gods out there. Is your conclusion based on revelation only?

[Cephus]

Ok...I'm not about to fall asleep anymore but it doesn't make much more sense now.

There is a whole lot of 'I believe' and 'it seems to me'. I understand, but why? What makes you think that? Why does this first cause need to have the attributes of your god?
I guess I can see where you're coming from with praiseworthy, but that's already a bit of a jump. So let me rewind a little.

I'm speaking specifically from the angle of the cosmological argument, the uncaused cause. For the purpose of this discussion, I'm ignoring the logical problems with that and I accept that the universe was created by a first cause. What I'm asking for is a step by step explanation of how to get from 'a first cause' to Allah. First, how do you figure it's conscious? Why is it impossible for the universe to be created by a first cause that was not?

This is pretty much the same thing Chad was doing-ascribing some of his god's attributes to this creator by default. I don't see why, and what is the basis of that. It doesn't follow.

I told you I took the assumption that God's Name/Face/Connection exists. That we do have knowledge of Him to a degree through that.

You cannot operate rationally by simply assuming your favored position is true.  People can't just assume that Bigfoot is real, alien abductions really happen or that politicians are honest.  That is an inherently illogical belief structure.