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RE: Evidence: The Gathering
August 21, 2015 at 10:45 am
(August 21, 2015 at 2:24 am)Randy Carson Wrote: (August 21, 2015 at 2:12 am)Nestor Wrote: The argument from aesthetic experience? Jesus, Randy, why stop at twenty arguments when the list of obviously desperate sophisms you're so enamored by could go on ad infinitum?
Which of them do you personally feel is the strongest of the bunch? I didn't read them all, but looking over the list, I would say I find the most interesting to be the arguments from design, morality, consciousness, and I'll throw in truth for good measure. That's not to say that I think they're by any means strong arguments for the Catholic God, a composite deity consisting of three parts which or who are contradictorily also said to be one being in essence; nor do I think they provide a rational basis for claiming that the first principle of being involves a soul or a will or a mind, but they are interesting and pose some difficult metaphysical questions that are fun to speculate about, viz., how it is that we as humans with a rational and moral capacity relate to the world.
He who loves God cannot endeavour that God should love him in return - Baruch Spinoza
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RE: Evidence: The Gathering
August 21, 2015 at 2:44 pm
(August 20, 2015 at 11:39 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: (August 20, 2015 at 6:57 pm)Rhondazvous Wrote: In Acts we are told that after his conversion, Paul went to Jerusalem and met with all the disciples and went on an evangelism spree. However, in Galatians, Paul gives a sworn affidavit that none of that ever happened. He says he did not make it to Jerusalem until 3 years later and only met John and a few others but the disciples never saw his face. What difference does it make what his motivations were if his whole story was doctored by writers who couldn't agree about what happened?
This is why it's important to know about Bible contradictions so we can identify the cherry pickers and quasi-arguments.
Damascus > Arabia > Jerusalem
Luke does not mention the three-year sojourn in Arabia; Paul does. But Luke doesn't say that Paul went straight from Damascus to Jerusalem, either.
Don't dodge the question; What did Paul have to gain by giving up a promising career among the Pharisees and joining the fledgling Christians?
Well, let's see. In Acts chapter 9 verse 25 the disciples (whom Paul tells us in Galatians had never seen his face) help him escape Damascus. then in verse 26 it starts in saying, "and when he had come to Jerusalem.." You really have to give yourself a lot of liberty to squeeze a three year journey in Arabia and who knows where else between verses 25 and 26.
But this is just one of many discrepancies in the accounts of Paul's conversion and journeys. They can all be resolved if you apply the same method of adding stuff where needed.
The god who allows children to be raped out of respect for the free will choice of the rapist, but punishes gay men for engaging in mutually consensual sex couldn't possibly be responsible for an intelligently designed universe.
I may defend your right to free speech, but i won't help you pass out flyers.
Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.
--Voltaire
Nietzsche isn't dead. How do I know he lives? He lives in my mind.
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RE: Evidence: The Gathering
August 21, 2015 at 2:50 pm
(August 20, 2015 at 11:21 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: (August 20, 2015 at 8:06 am)Cato Wrote: Possibly the same as David Koresh's motivations. Who knows?
The conviction of his beliefs say absolutely nothing about the veracity of his beliefs.
Who knows? Well, anyone who has read his letters, actually.
Paul was transformed from chief persecutor of the Church to its greatest proponent.
How did that happen?
Chief persecutor may have been an exaggeration. Minor would've been more like it.
Anyhow, nothing miraculous about how that happened (assuming it's true). Maybe he just didn't like his former position anymore and wanted to try something new.
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RE: Evidence: The Gathering
August 21, 2015 at 3:08 pm
(August 20, 2015 at 11:21 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Who knows? Well, anyone who has read his letters, actually.
Paul was transformed from chief persecutor of the Church to its greatest proponent.
How did that happen?
and I was transformed from a fervent believer to a passionate heathen.
How did THAT happen?
A woman was transformed from a good catholic to a devout muslim.
How did THAT happen?
Ever tire of non arguments, Randy?
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RE: Evidence: The Gathering
August 21, 2015 at 3:21 pm
(August 21, 2015 at 3:08 pm)Neimenovic Wrote: (August 20, 2015 at 11:21 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Who knows? Well, anyone who has read his letters, actually.
Paul was transformed from chief persecutor of the Church to its greatest proponent.
How did that happen?
and I was transformed from a fervent believer to a passionate heathen.
How did THAT happen?
A woman was transformed from a good catholic to a devout muslim.
How did THAT happen?
Ever tire of non arguments, Randy? But Nemo, that can't explain the empty tomb! 
It is very important not to mistake hemlock for parsley, but to believe or not believe in God is not important at all. - Denis Diderot
We are the United States of Amnesia, we learn nothing because we remember nothing. - Gore Vidal
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RE: Evidence: The Gathering
August 21, 2015 at 3:25 pm
(August 21, 2015 at 3:08 pm)Neimenovic Wrote: (August 20, 2015 at 11:21 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Who knows? Well, anyone who has read his letters, actually.
Paul was transformed from chief persecutor of the Church to its greatest proponent.
How did that happen?
and I was transformed from a fervent believer to a passionate heathen.
How did THAT happen?
Having faith in something requires more effort than not. You flowed downhill.
Quote:A woman was transformed from a good catholic to a devout muslim.
How did THAT happen?
I don't know the particulars, but there are books and Internet articles by folks who have gone the opposite way. So what?
Quote:Ever tire of non arguments, Randy?
Yep. Yours.
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RE: Evidence: The Gathering
August 21, 2015 at 3:43 pm
(This post was last modified: August 21, 2015 at 3:53 pm by Jenny A.)
(August 21, 2015 at 3:25 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: (August 21, 2015 at 3:08 pm)Neimenovic Wrote: and I was transformed from a fervent believer to a passionate heathen.
How did THAT happen?
Having faith in something requires more effort than not. You flowed downhill.
That would be the point. No one has to exert effort to maintain belief in demonstrably true things. God is not demonstrably true, and there for belief often requires an effort of will. Realizing that you shouldn't believe in something that requires an effort of will to believe is the first indication of a recovering theist.
If there is a god, I want to believe that there is a god. If there is not a god, I want to believe that there is no god.
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RE: Evidence: The Gathering
August 21, 2015 at 3:49 pm
(This post was last modified: August 21, 2015 at 3:50 pm by Longhorn.)
(August 21, 2015 at 3:25 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Having faith in something requires more effort than not. You flowed downhill.
Not necessarily so. Thinking for yourself and going against years of indoctrination isn't all that effortless. But yes, not having faith is easier than having it.... which begs the question why?
Quote:I don't know the particulars, but there are books and Internet articles by folks who have gone the opposite way. So what?
um. EXACTLY. So what?
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RE: Evidence: The Gathering
August 21, 2015 at 3:57 pm
(August 21, 2015 at 3:21 pm)Pizza Wrote: (August 21, 2015 at 3:08 pm)Neimenovic Wrote: and I was transformed from a fervent believer to a passionate heathen.
How did THAT happen?
A woman was transformed from a good catholic to a devout muslim.
How did THAT happen?
Ever tire of non arguments, Randy? But Nemo, that can't explain the empty tomb!
Or the shroud. Or the 30 pieces of silver. Or the torn veil of the holy of holies.
How did those happen?
The god who allows children to be raped out of respect for the free will choice of the rapist, but punishes gay men for engaging in mutually consensual sex couldn't possibly be responsible for an intelligently designed universe.
I may defend your right to free speech, but i won't help you pass out flyers.
Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.
--Voltaire
Nietzsche isn't dead. How do I know he lives? He lives in my mind.
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RE: Evidence: The Gathering
August 21, 2015 at 9:30 pm
(August 20, 2015 at 11:21 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: (August 20, 2015 at 8:06 am)Cato Wrote: Possibly the same as David Koresh's motivations. Who knows?
The conviction of his beliefs say absolutely nothing about the veracity of his beliefs.
Who knows? Well, anyone who has read his letters, actually.
Paul was transformed from chief persecutor of the Church to its greatest proponent.
How did that happen?
Do you really not understand the point I made or are you intentionally being obtuse to avoid the obvious painful conclusion?
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