Evidence: The Gathering

[abaris]

Gerd Ludemann was not an atheist?

I assume you're meaning Gerd Lüdemann, who's a protestant theologian teaching at a protestant university in German. Even more so, since Craig refers to him, which is probably where you got his name.

[Randy Carson]

Gerd Ludemann was not an atheist?

I assume you're meaning Gerd Lüdemann, who's a protestant theologian teaching at a protestant university in German. Even more so, since Craig refers to him, which is probably where you got his name.

I mean the atheist Gerd Ludemann who has debated William Lane Craig on the resurrection.

[Lucanus]

Catholics don't worship Mary

ಠ_ಠ



This is my hometown, Matera Italy. Every year, on July 2, there's the feast of the Madonna della Bruna (Our Lady of... I really don't know how to translate it).

the police are there because the float gets attacked by the people at the end of the procession, it's fucking nuts

But it's OK, Catholics don't worship Mary.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

---

I could quote a buttload of other feasts in which Mary is celebrated, prayed to and worshipped as the patron saint of places all over Italy. Bite me.

[abaris]

I mean the atheist Gerd Ludemann who has debated William Lane Craig on the resurrection.

So, make your case. Point me to him. I only know the theologian and professor at a protestant university Gerd Lüdemann. Shunned by Craig, that much is true, but not an atheist.

And hopefully you know that his book in question is called "Der große Betrug" - the big fraud, refering to the resurection and general flaws and forgeries in the gospels.

[Randy Carson]

Catholics don't worship Mary

ಠ_ಠ



This is my hometown, Matera Italy. Every year, on July 2, there's the feast of the Madonna della Bruna (Our Lady of... I really don't know how to translate it).

the police are there because the float gets attacked by the people at the end of the procession, it's fucking nuts

But it's OK, Catholics don't worship Mary.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

---

I could quote a buttload of other feasts in which Mary is celebrated, prayed to and worshipped as the patron saint of places all over Italy. Bite me.

No need to do all that.

Simply provide a single quote from the Catechism of the Catholic Church which explains to me, a Catholic, how and why I should worship Mary.

Alternatively, perhaps you could lay out a convincing argument that ALL prayer is necessarily worship. Can you do that, pray tell?

A third choice would be to explain that there are no real distinctions between dulia, hyperdulia and latria.

Do you have a preference?

[Jenny A]

Why are we wasting time with this idiot? He is obviously operating under the influence of a blow to the head with a heavy blunt object.
[...]

Because to us - it's just a discussion, with almost nothing at stake. Randy on the other hand is desperately fighting for his salvation and the eternal life he's been conned into believing in - and failing at it. It's morbidly fascinating - like watching a venomous spider trying to climb out of the bath-tub.

I assume you're meaning Gerd Lüdemann, who's a protestant theologian teaching at a protestant university in German. Even more so, since Craig refers to him, which is probably where you got his name.

I mean the atheist Gerd Ludemann who has debated William Lane Craig on the resurrection. 

Lundmann is indeed and atheist.  Like Ehrman, he became one through historical study of the New Testament.   It's a common story.   Baptists and other evangelicals warn seminarians not to go on to get higher degrees in theology for fear the will lose faith.   I find that rather telling.

[Randy Carson]

I mean the atheist Gerd Ludemann who has debated William Lane Craig on the resurrection.

So, make your case. Point me to him. I only know the theologian and professor at a protestant university Gerd Lüdemann. Shunned by Craig, that much is true, but not an atheist.

And hopefully you know that his book in question is called "Der große Betrug" - the big fraud, refering to the resurection and general flaws and forgeries in the gospels.

What is your point, abaris? That there are no atheist scholars who admit that Jesus existed other than Ehrman? That's a losing argument as you can confirm for yourself with a quick Google search.

As for Ludemann's atheism, do a search for his name here: http://atheist-seeker.blogspot.com/2005/...rs_07.html

[abaris]

Lundmann is indeed and atheist.  Like Ehrman, he became one through historical study of the New Testament.   It's a common story.   Baptists and other evangelicals warn seminarians not to go to get higher degrees in theology for fear the will lose faith.   I find that rather telling.

Jenny, who are you talking about? Randy talked about Gerd Ludemann, which I assume is the english spelling of Gerd Lüdemann. Famous for - as I said above - his book "Der große Betrug", which is anything like an apologetic book. He's on Craig's hitlist.

So did you simply misspell or is there another one?

[Lucanus]

ಠ_ಠ



This is my hometown, Matera Italy. Every year, on July 2, there's the feast of the Madonna della Bruna (Our Lady of... I really don't know how to translate it).

the police are there because the float gets attacked by the people at the end of the procession, it's fucking nuts

But it's OK, Catholics don't worship Mary.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

---

I could quote a buttload of other feasts in which Mary is celebrated, prayed to and worshipped as the patron saint of places all over Italy. Bite me.

No need to do all that.

Simply provide a single quote from the Catechism of the Catholic Church which explains to me, a Catholic, how and why I should worship Mary.

Alternatively, perhaps you could lay out a convincing argument that ALL prayer is necessarily worship. Can you do that, pray tell?

A third choice would be to explain that there are no real distinctions between dulia, hyperdulia and latria.

Do you have a preference?

Fancy words to avoid looking at the substance: saints here are worshipped just like the Roman gods were, barring the sacrifices. Praying to the image or statue of a saint *is* worship, no matter how you try to rationalise it

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/worship

Also, Hail Mary?

[abaris]

What is your point, abaris? That there are no atheist scholars who admit that Jesus existed other than Ehrman? That's a losing argument as you can confirm for yourself with a quick Google search.

So you mean Gerd Lüdemann after all. Would do you good if you actually informed yourself on what he actually wrote. I may be wrong about his atheism, but his book certainly isn't an apologetic work, since he's arguing for the gospels being wrong. Assuming you're refering to his book "Der große Betrug", published in 1998.

My point is, you're presenting to us what you consider to be the safe side. And you quite obviously came up with Lüdemann by looking at and knowing Craig without doing a background check on what Lüdemann's writing is actually about.

And as for his being expelled in your link - wrong again. He left there in 2011, aged 65, as professor emeritus.