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RE: Anti gay-marriage atheist??
August 31, 2015 at 2:01 pm
(August 31, 2015 at 1:52 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: (August 31, 2015 at 1:40 pm)Esquilax Wrote: While softly worded, I do have to point out that in practice this still means that gay people must deny huge parts of themselves in order to obey Catholic doctrine. That the church isn't directly, overtly hounding and discriminating against them (anymore) doesn't change the fact that what they are demanding of gay people, if they want to avoid hell and be in god's good graces, is amazingly cruel and callous. All the while, of course, the church offers a way out of that blanket, untenable denial to straight people, and they just studiously work to deny that same escape route to gay people for no real reason.
In reality, this new Catholic position on homosexuality is just a way to wrap a more subtle homophobia in nicer language; it's nothing more than a way for the church to continue demanding what it has of gay people for decades, while attempting to slip the charge of bigotry that they rightly deserve for doing so.
No one is saying that it's easy, or that God does not have mercy on those who fall short. It is a very tall order. Yes, ideally, we believe they should try to live a chaste life style. But we should not judge those who don't, because like you said, it is a very difficult thing to do. I don't think it's "bigoted" to have the belief that sex outside husband and wife is immoral. People can still do what they want in their sex life, and we should respect all people. But it doesn't mean we have to think it's moral. That's not bigoted.
On a semi unrelated note, do you think that it's wrong in general to believe someone should deny a huge part of themselves? Or only in certain cases?
Because there are other cases where all of us, as a society, believe a person should deny huge parts of themselves. Ah, but CL, here's what I see as the difference (as explained to me by a priest - I just wanted to hear what he would say) and he said that the Catholic Church no longer sees homosexual state as a sin, just homosexual sex. And obviously, they're not going to marry gay couples. So according to the Catholic Church, anyone who is homosexual must remain celibate to be able to take communion.
That's a pretty big part of one's self to deny. Imagine being told, at the age of, oh, 17, that you had to remain celibate ALL YOUR LIFE if you wanted to take communion.
"The family that prays together...is brainwashing their children."- Albert Einstein
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RE: Anti gay-marriage atheist??
August 31, 2015 at 2:11 pm
The Catholic Church essentially says: "We expect our straight people to get married if they're going to have sex. We expect gay people to remain chaste their entire life. Oh and we don't want them getting married, even if they do remain chaste."
I don't see how that makes a bit of sense. I don't see how they can be held as the high moral guardians either. It's nice to say "Treat them with respect". But in the same breath keeping marriage from consenting adults isn't really respect.
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RE: Anti gay-marriage atheist??
August 31, 2015 at 2:11 pm
(August 31, 2015 at 2:01 pm)drfuzzy Wrote: (August 31, 2015 at 1:52 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: No one is saying that it's easy, or that God does not have mercy on those who fall short. It is a very tall order. Yes, ideally, we believe they should try to live a chaste life style. But we should not judge those who don't, because like you said, it is a very difficult thing to do. I don't think it's "bigoted" to have the belief that sex outside husband and wife is immoral. People can still do what they want in their sex life, and we should respect all people. But it doesn't mean we have to think it's moral. That's not bigoted.
On a semi unrelated note, do you think that it's wrong in general to believe someone should deny a huge part of themselves? Or only in certain cases?
Because there are other cases where all of us, as a society, believe a person should deny huge parts of themselves. Ah, but CL, here's what I see as the difference (as explained to me by a priest - I just wanted to hear what he would say) and he said that the Catholic Church no longer sees homosexual state as a sin, just homosexual sex. And obviously, they're not going to marry gay couples. So according to the Catholic Church, anyone who is homosexual must remain celibate to be able to take communion.
That's a pretty big part of one's self to deny. Imagine being told, at the age of, oh, 17, that you had to remain celibate ALL YOUR LIFE if you wanted to take communion.
I feel like you're just regurgitating what I already said (being gay is not wrong, only acting on it), and bringing up things I've already addressed (that yes, it's very difficult, and yes, God has a lot of mercy), so I'm not sure what you're trying to tell me? Lol.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
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RE: Anti gay-marriage atheist??
August 31, 2015 at 2:17 pm
(August 31, 2015 at 1:52 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: No one is saying that it's easy, or that God does not have mercy on those who fall short. It is a very tall order. Yes, ideally, we believe they should try to live a chaste life style. But we should not judge those who don't, because like you said, it is a very difficult thing to do.
Basically you're saying - it's alright if they have sex, just as long as they feel guilty and ashamed of themselves afterwards. So - pretty much the traditional catholic way, huh?
(August 31, 2015 at 1:52 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I don't think it's "bigoted" to have the belief that sex outside husband and wife is immoral. People can still do what they want in their sex life, and we should respect all people. But it doesn't mean we have to think it's moral. That's not bigoted. [...]
Yeah, no - that's pretty much the definition of bigotry...
"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one." - George Bernard Shaw
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RE: Anti gay-marriage atheist??
August 31, 2015 at 2:17 pm
Fall short.....Jesus.
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RE: Anti gay-marriage atheist??
August 31, 2015 at 2:21 pm
(This post was last modified: August 31, 2015 at 2:22 pm by Catholic_Lady.)
(August 31, 2015 at 2:17 pm)Homeless Nutter Wrote: (August 31, 2015 at 1:52 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I don't think it's "bigoted" to have the belief that sex outside husband and wife is immoral. People can still do what they want in their sex life, and we should respect all people. But it doesn't mean we have to think it's moral. That's not bigoted. [...]
Yeah, no - that's pretty much the definition of bigotry...
My understanding of the definition of the word bigot is this:
big·ot
ˈbiɡət/
noun
a person who is intolerant toward those holding different opinions.
source: https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=bigot+
I think I have been tolerant and respectful to the people who have different opinions from myself.
(the same cannot be said about some of the people here, though)
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
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RE: Anti gay-marriage atheist??
August 31, 2015 at 2:26 pm
(This post was last modified: August 31, 2015 at 2:27 pm by robvalue.)
Can't they just have sex then go to confessional? Then it's all better. People sin all the time, it's designed to be unavoidable. Why is this any different?
Who has been harmed in that scenario?
We do expect some people not to act on certain urges they have, when those urges result in the harm of others, such as paedophiles. This is a false equivocation with homosexuality, which harms no one.
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RE: Anti gay-marriage atheist??
August 31, 2015 at 2:27 pm
"gay" shows us what we don't know about god's love and how stuck in the "body" we are. Your god's love surpasses all understanding cathy, even yours.
anti-logical Fallacies of Ambiguity
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RE: Anti gay-marriage atheist??
August 31, 2015 at 2:27 pm
(August 31, 2015 at 1:55 pm)rexbeccarox Wrote: (August 31, 2015 at 1:52 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: No one is saying that it's easy, or that God does not have mercy on those who fall short. It is a very tall order. Yes, ideally, we believe they should try to live a chaste life style. But we should not judge those who don't, because like you said, it is a very difficult thing to do. I don't think it's "bigoted" to have the belief that sex outside husband and wife is immoral. People can still do what they want in their sex life, and we should respect all people. But it doesn't mean we have to think it's moral. That's not bigoted.
On a semi unrelated note, do you think that it's wrong in general to believe someone should deny a huge part of themselves? Or only in certain cases?
Because there are other cases where all of us, as a society, believe a person should deny huge parts of themselves.
What cases are those?
Pretty much anything that is illegal or legal but not socially acceptable but would require someone to refrain from acting on deep seeded desires/parts of themselves.
I am reluctant to give examples because then people will just be like "omg, you're comparing ____ to homosexual sex!" Which is not what I'm doing at all. I'm merely pointing out that there are instances where all of us, as a society, believe a person should deny huge parts of themselves. Not that the behaviors themselves are similar in any way. But Esq made it sound like it's wrong in general to believe a person should ever do this, so I wanted clarification.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
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RE: Anti gay-marriage atheist??
August 31, 2015 at 2:29 pm
Can you give an example which doesn't hurt anybody?
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