HELL

[Salacious B. Crumb]

Thanks for actually answering, but then, I can turn that back to, why believe the bible? I feel I won’t get adequate answers though from previous conversations, because of the things in it that every human should disagree with. You know, the things like slavery, misogyny, and I’m sure you know the drill by now. Also, the 10 commandments should have, honor each other, instead of honor thy father and mother. So, it’s hard for me to accept those as authority, and hard for me to believe in the stories of the bible, and discredit all the other stories in other religions. It would be dishonest, because I have no reason to believe one over the other.

 The Bible is not a man made book/teachings, penned in man's hand yes but not man's teachings. What I said above really applies to those who want to know God or those who think they may want to find God.
 There are terrible things in the Bible, why, because though it's not a history book it is the history of man and his sinful desires that result in things not very pleasant. If a person doesn't start at the beginning of the Bible and see God as the loving God He is then one will manipulate the scriptures to suit their own desired beliefs. The Bible is like a fine tapestry, it's a woven work that has to be studied as a whole or it want make sense. Like a tapestry you pull out some of the threads and you will damage it, ie. it's meaning of truth. Just like the way you see the Ten commandments, you say they do not tell us to honor each other, I say you are pulling out threads to make an argument to reject them. I see them telling us to honor each other by, "You shall not murder." "You shall not commit adultery." "You shall not steal." "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor." "You shall not covet anything your neighbor has." How are these things not honoring others, it's written all over them, unless you blind yourself to this truth. There is so much more about how the scriptures fit, but that would take many pages and no one read them anyway so I'll stop here because I believe it answers most of your question. Maybe not to your satisfaction but, it's the truth.

GC

Yes, there are terrible things in the bible and…. guess what?!  God commands people to do those things! There’s one major reason not to believe in it.

If a person over the age of 10 starts at the beginning, without any pressure to actually believe in it, they would close the book by page 2. The book makes no sense in reality, how it exists today in the non-fiction section blows my mind.

If by fine tapestry, you mean evil, and filled with bullshit, ok, I’ll go with that.

No, I’m not pulling out threads, I read the book, you are the one pulling out the threads and creating your own book, in your own mind, to your liking. I hear many say the bible is the word of god, and you are meant to follow everything in it (it also says this in the bible). If i pick and choose certain verses from a book inspired by god, there shouldn’t be anything wrong in it, but clearly there is. Yes, those other commandments you mention are just fine, but I don’t believe in the whole thing, because of the other reasons that I mention, that you fail to absorb into your mind.

I’m not the one who is blind here, you have repeatedly shown yourself to be blind to everything bad in scripture. Either that, or you have to make some ridiculous excuse to how it doesn’t apply to you, or how I’m reading things out of context. I can see that there is good and evil (commanded by god) in it, YOU CAN’T.

And, yeah, you’re right, it isn’t to my satisfaction or does it fit my morality. And, if you think it’s the truth, you’re the one that has to be blind and immoral.

[Clueless Morgan]

I understand people already pray and ask Him for things, and blame Him for things, but imagine if He was in the form of a person standing right in front of us, and we were able to converse with Him everyday, like a parent or a very close friend.

You said that God is hidden from us because if he weren't people would ask for things for blame god for things, and then when I point out that people already do those things all you say in return is, essentially, "but imagine if He manifested for us!" as though that would change something.

Why would it change anything?  People ALREADY ask for things.  People ALREADY blame God for things.

How does manifesting for humanity change whether or not people continue to do what they are already doing?

Imagine having a close friend who is all powerful. Most of us would probably not be able to help but feel resentment towards Him when a loved one died, or when we asked for something that didn't happen. I mean, that happens even without Him being like a person we can see and talk to. Imagine if we could?

Except that if God manifested "like a parent or a... friend" (i.e. God existed) this god could sit each of us down and explain to us in a way each of us would understand why this god is doing the things it's doing, which is more than a parent or a friend can do because (at least my) parents and friends aren't omnipotent.

Sounds like you have a bit more faith in humanity than I do lol.

What does "faith in humanity" have to do with whether a god manifests and/or wants to have a "friendship" with humans?

Perhaps you are right. I don't see it though. I think a lot of people can be stubborn and irrational, especially when dealing with something very difficult like the death of a loved one. They can just not accept or agree with God's explanation for why something bad happened, or why they didn't get that job they asked Him for... they can tell themselves that God is evil and that if He really loved them things would be different, the world would be better, etc.  

... This paragraph doesn't make sense to me.  What are you trying to say here?

But then again, this is merely a theory that makes sense to me and that I have come to agree with. I'm not going to declare it as something I have 100% confidence in. I could be wrong.

How could you determine whether or not you are wrong?

[Minimalist]

Like the article says:

But that is the very basis of apologetics.  Making up excuses for why your bullshit is better than any other bullshit.

As the world's religions have encountered one another, apologetics and apologists from within their respective faiths have emerged. Some of these apologetics respond to or fight back against the arguments of other religions and secularism; others are pure defense.

Never forget the wise words of Robert Green Ingersoll:  Every sect is a certificate that God has not plainly revealed his will to man. To each reader the Bible conveys a different meaning.


Your 'god' is a poor communicator.

[downbeatplumb]

Hi yall. Let me start off by saying I don't think it's healthy to focus too much on this subject, regardless of whether you believe in it or not. 

However, what prompted me to write this post was all the talk and questions I see in regards to the belief in Hell. I've explained my views a little bit, by saying that 1. I don't believe Hell is a physical place, 2. I don't believe God "throws" people into Hell, and 3. I believe Hell is the state of being by an individual who has rejected goodness and love, thus rejecting God Himself (since I believe God is those things).

Another belief I have that has been speculated by a few theologians but is not mentioned in the article, is that upon dying, every person gets a final chance to "meet" with God, if you will. And from there they make a conscious and informed decision to either reject or accept Him. (And by accepting or rejecting Him, they are accepting or rejecting love and goodness. So the state of rejection is Hell, the state of acceptance is Heaven.)   

I figured it might be useful to me to lay it all out here so everyone understands where I stand, and so I can refer people back to this post when I get questions or comments regarding Hell. 

Here is a snippet from the article:

By their account, hell is best understood as the condition of total alienation from all that is good, hopeful and loving in the world. What's more, this condition is chosen by the damned themselves, the ultimate exercise of free will, not a punishment engineered by God.

Hell ''is not a 'place' but a 'state,' a person's 'state of being,' in which a person suffers from the deprivation of God,'' declared La Civilta Cattolica, an influential Jesuit magazine based in Rome and closely tied to the Vatican, in a long editorial in July.

The magazine also stated that it is not God who inflicts pain ''through angels or demons as is illustrated in many paintings or is read in the 'Divine Comedy,' '' but the sinner who triggers his own punishment by deliberately rejecting God's grace, thereby entering a great state of pain.

For those interested in reading more: http://www.nytimes.com/1999/09/18/arts/h...gewanted=1

(The silly part is that the title calls this view a "makeover" but the article goes on to say this view is nothing new in the Church lol)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tGO79BtWUI

[Godscreated]

If it pleases you go ahead, personally I like natural cotton, but do wear man made material as well. By the way if you want to live the OT laws for the Israelites be my guess, it will become what you are judged by. I like and eat many sea foods the Israelites weren't allowed to, I love rabbit, pork and other things the Israelites weren't suppose to eat, why, because those laws were not ever intended for the Gentiles. You're such a silly little girl.

GC

Yes, silly little Beccs.. God inspires people to write evil laws for the Israelites, but not the gentiles?

Ephesians 6:5-8 5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. 6 Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. 7 Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not people, 8 because you know that the Lord will reward each one for whatever good they do, whether they are slave or free.

This was not a law it was a teaching to make life easier for slave and to glorify Christ in the condition they were in, slavery was something that was going on in all that part of the world, slavery man chose to institute. This is a teaching for slaves to be able to live the best life they could and with a purpose (though you probably can't see the purpose), in their situation. Verse 7 is the key to their purpose.

Titus 2:9-10 9 Bondservants are to be submissive to their own masters in everything; they are to be well-pleasing, not argumentative, 10 not pilfering, but showing all good faith, so that in everything they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior.

The same applies here as in the above verses. Whether a slave or servant under a bond the person is in the same condition and the teahing is to help life to be of purpose.

I love all the ranting and ravings for me to look at Paul and not the OT. What’s the difference? There’s also similar verses in colossians, peter, romans, and galatians. Screw your bible! You have to believe slavery is ok to be a christian, unless you are a pick and choose type of christian.

You do understand that this post wasn't directed to you? Ranting and raving, I thought you might be different than the others, guess I was wrong, you also didn't reply to my post directed to you, I have to guess why, so I guess it's because this is a pet complaint you have about slavery, something man instituted not God. You have to remember that God works within the life and history of man, if man decides to do wrong no matter how bad God advises against it but want force him to change. Man has corrupted this world whether you believe in God or not, either way man is responsible.
No Christian has to believe slavery, why would you say that? I believe what the Bible says as a whole, I do not pick and choose, when one studies the Bible and see the fine tapestry it is one can understand what God is saying to us and teaching us. Think of the Bible as you may, but you are missing out on the best part of life and will in eternity, also.

GC

[Thumpalumpacus]

That's your definition of it, which is no more informed than anyone else's here.

That is true. But when someone asks me questions/makes comments to me about the definition of Hell that is not the one I believe in, it makes me think they probably just don't understand the one I actually believe in. ...If that makes sense lol. 

It's like, I say everything I say in the OP, and then someone comes on here and says to me "Well, I just don't get why a loving God would punish people." Ok, right. I don't either lol. That's not what I believe.

Haha, what else am I supposed to say to that person?

Well, it seems to me that the point is that there are these other conceptions of hell that are equally valid as yours, and those comments are made to point that out.

But in the post I quoted, you write, "Judging from some of the questions/comments, I can see that some of you simply did not understand the original post lol." I think that judgement is incorrect; I think others are mentioning other concepts of Hell and asking you to justify yours over theirs on grounds a little more substantial than "The Church told me so."

[Salacious B. Crumb]

If it pleases you go ahead, personally I like natural cotton, but do wear man made material as well. By the way if you want to live the OT laws for the Israelites be my guess, it will become what you are judged by. I like and eat many sea foods the Israelites weren't allowed to, I love rabbit, pork and other things the Israelites weren't suppose to eat, why, because those laws were not ever intended for the Gentiles. You're such a silly little girl.

GC

Yes, silly little Beccs.. God inspires people to write evil laws for the Israelites, but not the gentiles?

Ephesians 6:5-8 5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. 6 Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. 7 Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not people, 8 because you know that the Lord will reward each one for whatever good they do, whether they are slave or free.

This was not a law it was a teaching to make life easier for slave and to glorify Christ in the condition they were in, slavery was something that was going on in all that part of the world, slavery man chose to institute. This is a teaching for slaves to be able to live the best life they could and with a purpose (though you probably can't see the purpose), in their situation. Verse 7 is the key to their purpose.

Titus 2:9-10 9 Bondservants are to be submissive to their own masters in everything; they are to be well-pleasing, not argumentative, 10 not pilfering, but showing all good faith, so that in everything they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior.

The same applies here as in the above verses. Whether a slave or servant under a bond the person is in the same condition and the teahing is to help life to be of purpose.

I love all the ranting and ravings for me to look at Paul and not the OT. What’s the difference? There’s also similar verses in colossians, peter, romans, and galatians. Screw your bible! You have to believe slavery is ok to be a christian, unless you are a pick and choose type of christian.

You do understand that this post wasn't directed to you? Ranting and raving, I thought you might be different than the others, guess I was wrong, you also didn't reply to my post directed to you, I have to guess why, so I guess it's because this is a pet complaint you have about slavery, something man instituted not God. You have to remember that God works within the life and history of man, if man decides to do wrong no matter how bad God advises against it but want force him to change. Man has corrupted this world whether you believe in God or not, either way man is responsible.
No Christian has to believe slavery, why would you say that? I believe what the Bible says as a whole, I do not pick and choose, when one studies the Bible and see the fine tapestry it is one can understand what God is saying to us and teaching us. Think of the Bible as you may, but you are missing out on the best part of life and will in eternity, also.

GC

Actually I did respond to the post directed towards me, all you have to do is look at the very top of this page. #121

[Godscreated]

A punishment cast by God, is what I said.

<sigh>
And yet your church said:

612 Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,"613 and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"

That is STILL in the official teachings.

What changed? God decided to pick up a phone after 2000 years and informed the Funny-hats, that - no, he won't be personally condemning anyone? Why now?

Let me ask you a question, does a judge put law breakers in jail? Here's what I believe, they break the law by choice, they are caught and brought before a judge, if found guilty they are sentenced to jail, did the judge sentence them, no the law they broke did, the one they broke by choice. They chose to break the law and chose to do the time all in one instant of stupidity.

GC

[drfuzzy]

Hi yall. Let me start off by saying I don't think it's healthy to focus too much on this subject, regardless of whether you believe in it or not. 

However, what prompted me to write this post was all the talk and questions I see in regards to the belief in Hell. I've explained my views a little bit, by saying that 1. I don't believe Hell is a physical place, 2. I don't believe God "throws" people into Hell, and 3. I believe Hell is the state of being by an individual who has rejected goodness and love, thus rejecting God Himself (since I believe God is those things).

Another belief I have that has been speculated by a few theologians but is not mentioned in the article, is that upon dying, every person gets a final chance to "meet" with God, if you will. And from there they make a conscious and informed decision to either reject or accept Him. (And by accepting or rejecting Him, they are accepting or rejecting love and goodness. So the state of rejection is Hell, the state of acceptance is Heaven.)   

I figured it might be useful to me to lay it all out here so everyone understands where I stand, and so I can refer people back to this post when I get questions or comments regarding Hell. 

Here is a snippet from the article:

By their account, hell is best understood as the condition of total alienation from all that is good, hopeful and loving in the world. What's more, this condition is chosen by the damned themselves, the ultimate exercise of free will, not a punishment engineered by God.

Hell ''is not a 'place' but a 'state,' a person's 'state of being,' in which a person suffers from the deprivation of God,'' declared La Civilta Cattolica, an influential Jesuit magazine based in Rome and closely tied to the Vatican, in a long editorial in July.

The magazine also stated that it is not God who inflicts pain ''through angels or demons as is illustrated in many paintings or is read in the 'Divine Comedy,' '' but the sinner who triggers his own punishment by deliberately rejecting God's grace, thereby entering a great state of pain.

For those interested in reading more: http://www.nytimes.com/1999/09/18/arts/h...gewanted=1

(The silly part is that the title calls this view a "makeover" but the article goes on to say this view is nothing new in the Church lol)

(see boldface)

So . . . after dying, everyone meets God face-to-face.  Then why was Jesus even needed?  By this reasoning, Ted Bundy or Hitler or Pol Pot or ____  could die completely unrepentant, meet God, and THEN say "oops, I guess I was wrong".   If you get a chance to avoid judgement after you die, why do you need to believe that Jesus died to erase your sins so that you wouldn't have to go to hell?

[Godscreated]

Actually I did respond to the post directed towards me, all you have to do is look at the very top of this page. #121

Sorry I missed it and will respond to it later.

GC