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RE: Why atheism cannot escape absolute truth
October 6, 2015 at 11:35 pm
(October 6, 2015 at 5:02 am)Pandæmonium Wrote: So what is this objective truth, and why is not viewed objectively? Or indeed universally? Or indeed at all?
It is viewed objectively. It might not be apprehended or accepted universally, but then again objective and universal are not the same thing.
Examples include scientific and mathematical truths, other true claims about reality that are true independent of how one feels about them.
But something that is objective need not be viewed universally because just because something is true independent of your feelings about it, doesn't mean everyone should know it universally.
(October 6, 2015 at 11:09 am)Evie Wrote: delicate= Wrote:If you read what I said carefully, 'objective truth' refers to one of two categories of truth. Simply calling it 'truth' is confused and glosses over the second category.
I don't know where you said that? I missed that.
Truth that isn't objective? News to me. If it's not objective it seems kind of pointless calling it 'truth' to me 
Subjective truths are those truths whose truth values depend on what people think, or feel, or experience. Claims like "Vanilla ice-cream is delicious" are subjectively true.
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RE: Why atheism cannot escape absolute truth
October 6, 2015 at 11:38 pm
Playing Cluedo with my mum while I was at Uni:
"You did WHAT? With WHO? WHERE???"
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RE: Why atheism cannot escape absolute truth
October 7, 2015 at 12:07 am
(This post was last modified: October 7, 2015 at 12:08 am by Losty.)
(October 6, 2015 at 11:35 pm)Delicate Wrote: (October 6, 2015 at 5:02 am)Pandæmonium Wrote: So what is this objective truth, and why is not viewed objectively? Or indeed universally? Or indeed at all?
It is viewed objectively. It might not be apprehended or accepted universally, but then again objective and universal are not the same thing.
Examples include scientific and mathematical truths, other true claims about reality that are true independent of how one feels about them.
But something that is objective need not be viewed universally because just because something is true independent of your feelings about it, doesn't mean everyone should know it universally.
(October 6, 2015 at 11:09 am)Evie Wrote: I don't know where you said that? I missed that.
Truth that isn't objective? News to me. If it's not objective it seems kind of pointless calling it 'truth' to me
Subjective truths are those truths whose truth values depend on what people think, or feel, or experience. Claims like "Vanilla ice-cream is delicious" are subjectively true.
If a truth is only true subjectively, one could argue that it isn't really true at all.
Perhaps there is no truth.
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RE: Why atheism cannot escape absolute truth
October 7, 2015 at 12:08 am
(This post was last modified: October 7, 2015 at 12:09 am by Edwardo Piet.)
Delicate Wrote:Subjective truths are those truths whose truth values depend on what people think, or feel, or experience. Claims like "Vanilla ice-cream is delicious" are subjectively true.
Subjective truths are still true objectively.
From the Moral Landscape by Sam Harris:
Sam Harris Wrote:As philosopher John Searle once pointed out, there are two very different senses of the terms “objective” and “subjective”. The first sense relates to how we know (i.e., epistemology), the second to what there is to know (i.e., ontology). When we say that we are reasoning or speaking “objectively”, we generally mean that we are free of obvious bias, open to counterarguments, cognizant of the relevant facts, and so on. This to make a claim about how we are thinking. In this sense, there is no impediment to our studying the subjective (I.e. first-person) facts “objectively. (Harris, 2010, p. 29)
All truth is ultimately objective, whether about subjective states of affairs or not. Objectively true is just true.
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RE: Why atheism cannot escape absolute truth
October 7, 2015 at 12:20 am
Well, I'm tempted to agree with anything John Searle says- I mean it's Searle! And frankly, it makes sense that one can study subjective facts objectively, just as one can treat the statement "I like vanilla ice-cream." in a third-person, objective, analytic way.
But this doesn't collapse the difference. Nor does it say subjective truths are true objectively.
It merely means that one can be viewed in the perspective of the other. It works the other way around too: Objective truths can be studied subjectively.
I don't think what Searle is getting at is "All truth is objective."
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RE: Why atheism cannot escape absolute truth
October 7, 2015 at 12:23 am
Well..... the dictionary is getting at all truth being objective.....
A subjective truth? You mean a truth about subjectivity? Is subjectivity separate from the objective world? No. Is there anything but the objective world which also contains subjectivity? No. It's all about the objective world. Truth is objective, everything is........ key word: ultimately objective.
Nah that wasn't Searle's point.... that would be too obvious a point for him to need to make. He had bigger fish to fry.
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RE: Why atheism cannot escape absolute truth
October 7, 2015 at 12:30 am
This whole objective truth debate is just too deep for me. I give up trying to understand.
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RE: Why atheism cannot escape absolute truth
October 7, 2015 at 12:32 am
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RE: Why atheism cannot escape absolute truth
October 7, 2015 at 12:36 am
We can agree to disagree. 
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RE: Why atheism cannot escape absolute truth
October 7, 2015 at 12:37 am
(October 7, 2015 at 12:36 am)Delicate Wrote: We can agree to disagree.
Such a sweet delicate flower
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