Even atheists can be deulsional/ OP ED

[Ben Davis]

I see, thanks. So does that make communism (generally) a dictatorship though? It seems like no one can challenge the authority of that mental guy.

Theoretically, Communist regimes don't have to be dictatorships but the only examples we've seen so far have been.

[abaris]

I see, thanks. So does that make communism (generally) a dictatorship though? It seems like no one can challenge the authority of that mental guy.

Regime is the keyword. Communism, as imagined by Marx, was about willingly sharing the resources. Not forcibly.

But that aside, North Korea doesn't even fit that bill. Apart from the collectivism, it's only for the benefit of one person/family and to a lesser degree, a very small ruling cast. That's why I said, if you want to attach labels to something that can't be labelled, it's similar to absolute monarchies of old. The rulers take what they need and fuck the peasants.

[Ben Davis]

That's why I said, if you want to attach labels to something that can't be labelled, it's similar to absolute monarchies of old.

Didn't Hitchens refer to it as a Necrocracy? Lorded by the deceased Kim Il Sung as the Supreme Leader, I think that's very apt.

[abaris]

Didn't Hitchens refer to it as a Necrocracy? Lorded by the deceased Kim Il Sung as the Supreme Leader, I think that's very apt.

I never read anything by Hitchens, Dawkins or Harris and didn't pay them much attention. But this seems to be right. But a strong factor is also the pseudo religious and mythical elements woven into their ideology. They attribute all the Kims with being born at holy Korean sites and several mythical or heavenly signs surrounding their birth. So it's more on the lines of religious savior figures than actual dictators.

With all the personality cult surrounding Hitler or Stalin, they never did something like that. Their narrative was a person coming being born into the masses and to tirelessly working towards the wellbeing of the pople. Stalin was repeatedly called "friend of the people" or "daddy Stalin". Hitler was called "the people's chancellor".

[Brian37]

I see, thanks. So does that make communism (generally) a dictatorship though? It seems like no one can challenge the authority of that mental guy.

Regime is the keyword. Communism, as imagined by Marx, was about willingly sharing the resources. Not forcibly.

But that aside, North Korea doesn't even fit that bill. Apart from the collectivism, it's only for the benefit of one person/family and to a lesser degree, a very small ruling cast. That's why I said, if you want to attach labels to something that can't be labelled, it's similar to absolute monarchies of old. The rulers take what they need and fuck the peasants.

My point exactly, you can have a caste system arise no matter what. It still amounts to centralized wealth. And even worse when that concentration frowns on dissent. Same with Stalin, same with the Castro family. India has a caste system worse than America, but we are working to look like their pay gap. So the only difference is that we have more of an opportunity to correct abuse than a closed society that doesn't allow for dissent. The labels are splitting hairs.

[Brian37]

Didn't Hitchens refer to it as a Necrocracy? Lorded by the deceased Kim Il Sung as the Supreme Leader, I think that's very apt.

I never read anything by Hitchens, Dawkins or Harris and didn't pay them much attention. But this seems to be right. But a strong factor is also the pseudo religious and mythical elements woven into their ideology. They attribute all the Kims with being born at holy Korean sites and several mythical or heavenly signs surrounding their birth. So it's more on the lines of religious savior figures than actual dictators.

With all the personality cult surrounding Hitler or Stalin, they never did something like that. Their narrative was a person coming being born into the masses and to tirelessly working towards the wellbeing of the pople. Stalin was repeatedly called "friend of the people" or "daddy Stalin". Hitler was called "the people's chancellor".

Hitchens was absolutely far from valuing any type of closed state where speech was silenced. I'd say when you equate God and heaven to a "celestial North Korea", I don't see how you can paint any differences between Hitler and Stalin. They were just as full of propaganda and frowned on dissent and there was no freedom anywhere close to what the west is used to.  Again, it's like claiming stabbing someone to death makes them less dead than shooting them to death. They were all monsters.

[Brian37]

I see, thanks. So does that make communism (generally) a dictatorship though? It seems like no one can challenge the authority of that mental guy.

Regime is the keyword. Communism, as imagined by Marx, was about willingly sharing the resources. Not forcibly.

But that aside, North Korea doesn't even fit that bill. Apart from the collectivism, it's only for the benefit of one person/family and to a lesser degree, a very small ruling cast. That's why I said, if you want to attach labels to something that can't be labelled, it's similar to absolute monarchies of old. The rulers take what they need and fuck the peasants.

The other part about this one guy who was a Marx fan, is that I admitted Marx had some good ideas, but this is what I don't like about formulas set in stone, someone can take that idea and turn it into a rigid inflexible idea which is what Stalin did. It is why I also don't like Ayn Rand. Good economies more like the west are mixed, and the key isn't being rigid but adapting to changing situations. I think democratic socialism is the best mix. It doesn't say either or, but it depends.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Hi Brian. Fascism is a set of right-wing totalitarian ideologies (e.g. National Socialism) whereas North Korea is a Communist state which has adopted a totalitarian left-wing ideology, that of the Supreme Leader Kim Il Sung. Technically, your friend is correct.

You confirmed my suspicions. It is semantics and getting picky. Like I said, the difference between Ted Bundy and Jeffery Damher. On a non fascist note, this is like when my mom called a foot stool an Ottoman. Way to stare at my finger while I am pointing to the sky. 

My point is that that family are monsters. Pick any fucking negative word about them and it is apt. Dicks, assholes, murderers, thugs, criminals all apt descriptions of that family.

The difference is not "semantics". You're using the word "fascism" when you mean something else. Words have meanings. The wise communicator uses them accordingly; you're finding out why right now, in that other conversation.

[Brian37]

You confirmed my suspicions. It is semantics and getting picky. Like I said, the difference between Ted Bundy and Jeffery Damher. On a non fascist note, this is like when my mom called a foot stool an Ottoman. Way to stare at my finger while I am pointing to the sky. 

My point is that that family are monsters. Pick any fucking negative word about them and it is apt. Dicks, assholes, murderers, thugs, criminals all apt descriptions of that family.

The difference is not "semantics". You're using the word "fascism" when you mean something else.  Words have meanings. The wise communicator uses them accordingly; you're finding out why right now, in that other conversation.

Which is WHY I admitted my mistake there and here. Yes words have meanings I agree. But no matter what I do in correcting myself, I can't catch a break with those idiots. Pork and beef are both meats, and that is what I meant by "fascist". 

Now with those assholes, if I were to delete the thread, they would accuse me of hiding something. I leave my mistakes up so it can be used as a teachable moment. 

Just like Hebrew, Christian, and Islam are different religions but still stem from the same past. Hitler, Stalin and Un still are/were oppressors of dissent. They were right, I was wrong. But that does not give them any right to miss the entirety of the message.

[robvalue]

Thanks for the answers guys

I see what you mean, trying to label things can lead to oversimplification.

It seems to me that pretty much no one can stop the crazy guy doing what he wants, short of a coup or assassination. I'd call that bullshit, whatever else you might call it.