You’re wondering why everyone is jumping all over your back and I’m surprised you haven’t realized that your initial approach was to blame. I’m correcting the spelling in your quotes, unlike Kichi (who has a healthier attitude of ‘don’t care,’ bless her), because I can’t stand to look at it. Please let me know if the corrections in any way changed the meaning of the statements.
You can’t come into an atheist forum and essentially tell them they live meaningless lives devoid of feeling simply because they do not hold the belief that these things spring from some divine source. You can’t imply that we have no wonder at the universe when a good portion of us are involved in some sort of science, which is a process for observing and understanding the wonders of the universe.
Just because we can explain HOW these things work in our brains and bodies doesn’t negate the fact in our way of thinking that they are there. If I can tell you the psychology and biochemistry behind a swift bolt of lust to the gut, it doesn’t make me any less horny for Gerard Butler (or [grimace] Robert Downey Jr.).
Erm…what real evidence do you have for there being one? Now you’re crossing from faith to science, which is a mistake. Either you take your God on faith like a good Catholic boy, or you have enough skepticism to need to say “Hey! Look here! This proves it!” And for what? To convince the rest of us to have faith too? I really don’t understand why any theists come onto this site to tell us god is real – maybe you can fill me in on what you get out of the hope of winning the argument. The satisfaction of being right? There are easier ways. Do you hope to convert us? Why would you care if your loving god burned us as heathens anyway?
Nazis and Communists aren’t evil in and of themselves. How they achieved some or all of their ends were. Thanks to better technologies, they were able to wipe out more people in a shorter amount of time according to their political ideologies. However, I’d argue that while there may have been underlying material reasons for some religious leaders to commit atrocities, there were plenty of religious reasons invoked - the Crusades…the extermination of the Cathars…persecution of pagans…mindless conversion of non-Christians by missionaries who refused to see that Christianity wasn’t the only road to morality… That fuckwit Tebow comes to mind, more worried about making third-world children pray and circumcising them (without medical training!!) than truly improving the quality of life. What’s his material reason for committing the atrocity of cutting off a piece of a non-consenting baby boy’s penis? A practice, by the by, that began not for health reasons (as some people would have you believe, and which are unfounded) but because the early Jews realized the only way to constantly remind a man of his Covenant with god was to somehow mutilate the body part he values most.
There doesn’t have to be. Atheism frees us up to glorify and find beauty in other things besides an attention-hungry invisible friend.
Can someone with an outsider’s perspective please explain this trinity tripe to me?
Nor is there reason to believe he does exist. Believe me, I tried for years. It was a waste of mental effort. The belief that Joe Pesci is secretly watching out for me is more entertaining, at least.
I’m sorry, you’re saying because I’m a social creature and like to have interaction that this is proof of that god exists because the need for companionship speaks of something…cosmic? I’m not following your logic here – how does the normal want of companionship inevitably mean there’s a god, and specifically the Christian view of it?
Sir Isaac Newton believed in alchemy. That’s right; the man who gave us the laws of gravity also thought he could turn base material into gold. Henry Ford was a documented anti-Semite. Those beliefs didn’t change the fact that he launched a billion dollar car industry. The man who is the lead on the human genome project is a born-again Christian. Thomas Jefferson, who wrote the Declaration of Independence, didn’t believe in Jesus’s divinity. None of these beliefs factor into the validity and beauty of their work. (Well, ‘beauty’ is subjective with Ford, as I drive on and it’s a piece of shite, let me tell you) I’m not launching anything at you, TDoA, just jumping off your springboard to make a point.
If I asked you both to state sources proving your claims, I’d put my money on Min to come up with actual documentation, including primary sources from Hitler himself and his surrounding family and friends. If you’re going to call him a liar, back that shit up. Also, he didn’t insult you personally – he might have insulted your beliefs. And he was quite polite. Funny you tell Kichi to grow up when you sound like you need to relearn the concept of “sticks and stones”.
[whooping with laughter]
Right. And that’s why Jews from Siberia to England were made to wear identifying accessories and hold only certain jobs…because this wasn’t a religion-wide hatred. Please remember that Christianity was the dominant religion in all of those places. Of course now it’s great PR to say that the church never publicly condoned such acts, but that’s the same as the Pope saying he would never condone a child molester…while covering up the evidence that it happened and barely punishing the individual who committed the crime.
Translation: I know it’s one of the Seven Deadly Sins…except when it’s useful to me.
Neither one of them said that.
One of the kindest, most generous, and wonderful men I know is a Christian. I don’t have to share his theological views to respect him or his.
You said you think that people who interacted with you in an everyday way would like you well enough. I suggest you apologize, take a breath, and realize you shouldn’t have come in here with your fists up. Atheists and theists get along quite well here in a civilized manner. If you want to discuss why you think Catholicism is great, that’s fine, but maybe you should have said “This is what I believe, how about you?” and gone from there.
Quote:So I'm curious... awe, that spark of wonder
Quote:The other states, that in truth there is no love, beauty or meaning, these things are actually the result of material interactions etc.
You can’t come into an atheist forum and essentially tell them they live meaningless lives devoid of feeling simply because they do not hold the belief that these things spring from some divine source. You can’t imply that we have no wonder at the universe when a good portion of us are involved in some sort of science, which is a process for observing and understanding the wonders of the universe.
Just because we can explain HOW these things work in our brains and bodies doesn’t negate the fact in our way of thinking that they are there. If I can tell you the psychology and biochemistry behind a swift bolt of lust to the gut, it doesn’t make me any less horny for Gerard Butler (or [grimace] Robert Downey Jr.).
Quote:Well there is no evidence for there not being a God.
Erm…what real evidence do you have for there being one? Now you’re crossing from faith to science, which is a mistake. Either you take your God on faith like a good Catholic boy, or you have enough skepticism to need to say “Hey! Look here! This proves it!” And for what? To convince the rest of us to have faith too? I really don’t understand why any theists come onto this site to tell us god is real – maybe you can fill me in on what you get out of the hope of winning the argument. The satisfaction of being right? There are easier ways. Do you hope to convert us? Why would you care if your loving god burned us as heathens anyway?
Quote:The GREAT evils of Nazism and Communism are arguably the most horrific evils every done by man, and they were done by intelligent and affluent men….
Nazis and Communists aren’t evil in and of themselves. How they achieved some or all of their ends were. Thanks to better technologies, they were able to wipe out more people in a shorter amount of time according to their political ideologies. However, I’d argue that while there may have been underlying material reasons for some religious leaders to commit atrocities, there were plenty of religious reasons invoked - the Crusades…the extermination of the Cathars…persecution of pagans…mindless conversion of non-Christians by missionaries who refused to see that Christianity wasn’t the only road to morality… That fuckwit Tebow comes to mind, more worried about making third-world children pray and circumcising them (without medical training!!) than truly improving the quality of life. What’s his material reason for committing the atrocity of cutting off a piece of a non-consenting baby boy’s penis? A practice, by the by, that began not for health reasons (as some people would have you believe, and which are unfounded) but because the early Jews realized the only way to constantly remind a man of his Covenant with god was to somehow mutilate the body part he values most.
Quote:There is nothing that is actually beautiful in and of itself within atheism.
There doesn’t have to be. Atheism frees us up to glorify and find beauty in other things besides an attention-hungry invisible friend.
Quote:Well the Triune God has existed from eternity, and within Eternity He has loved within Himself, that is the Father loves the Son and gives Him all of Himself; likewise the Son returns this love to the Father in eternal Triune dance. The Holy Spirit is sometimes understood as the manifestation of the love between the Father and Son, but I think you get the gist.
Can someone with an outsider’s perspective please explain this trinity tripe to me?
Quote:There is no reason to believe that God does not exist.
Nor is there reason to believe he does exist. Believe me, I tried for years. It was a waste of mental effort. The belief that Joe Pesci is secretly watching out for me is more entertaining, at least.
Quote:I certainly believe that you experience contingent emergent meaning…Maybe I’m lost because of philosophy, which is hardly my forte, but this sounded like a lot of ‘meaningless’ sentences strung together in an attempt to display some sort of wisdom. If it isn’t, do us a favor and explain it in layman’s terms.
Quote:We observe it within ourselves in the sense that we feel loneliness, and a yearning for true love and meaning.
I’m sorry, you’re saying because I’m a social creature and like to have interaction that this is proof of that god exists because the need for companionship speaks of something…cosmic? I’m not following your logic here – how does the normal want of companionship inevitably mean there’s a god, and specifically the Christian view of it?
Quote:You cannot prove to me that God does not exist, and there are many reasons that are not necessarily sound, but are certainly valid, to believe in God.Well at least we agree on that point – “not necessarily sound”. Before I start devoting large amounts of brain space and time out of my week to something, I personally like to ensure it has a “sound” and reasonable foundation, thanks. You’re free to waste your time as you see fit. Just don’t tell me that not choosing your time waster makes me a meaningless and unloving person. I’m a Redskins fan and I believe Cowboys fans waste their time ridiculously, but I don’t hold it against them. Much.
Ashendant Wrote:There is no reason to believe that unicorns don't exist, see how that works?Indeed. In fact, Ryft believes the Invisible Pink Unicorn has it in for his “thing”.
Quote:I can't believe a person with an elf as their picture is trying to tell me about fairy tales.Oh dear, was there nothing better to open your attack with than insulting a piece of art she happened to like? And curiously, that elf looks rather human but for a few details, so I would assume, being anthropomorphic, it carries similar traits to the god-image you think we’re made in. If I’m made in god’s image, I wish god had a smaller ass and I commiserate on the dry skin issues.
You're not a whorish looking dark elf, you are a human being, created in the Imago Dei with meaning, not fake decietful meaning, but real meaning which stems from the love of an eternal God, not subject to temporality.
Quote:You are a shameful person, and I believe you are one of those who atheism transformed into a worse person.Instead of logically refuting her argument, you continue to insult her. Considering the way the rest of the conversation went, I should hope you realize that this is where the ‘insult’ path diverged, and you were the one blazing the trail, not Kichi. You have no idea what she is like outside of that one post, and yet because she insulted your belief system you have to insult her personally instead of taking the high ground and defending it. Usually we ascribe this to someone lacking in adequate defenses. You’ve gone from attempting to accurately barb us to slinging crude rocks at a scarecrow with Kichi’s name on it. Shame on you, “Christian,” that you judge so quickly.
Quote:Your success is another man's very real failure; it is wholly subjective. Your meaning is ultimately a lie that you believe so that you do not commit suicide. As they say, the most important question in philosophy is, "should I kill myself?"What the fuck? Just because I don’t believe “Thou cannot stir a flower without troubling a star” doesn’t mean I want to kill myself. Void? The_Skeptic? Someone please tell me if that truly is the most important question in philosophy. I highly doubt it. As someone who has dealt with the very painful and real question of “should I kill myself?” I can tell you right now the foremost question or problem in my mind wasn’t “do I matter to the universe?” And what’s this success-failure shit? Just because I succeeded at something doesn’t mean someone else necessarily failed…he/she could think *I* failed because it IS wholly subjective. None of us have the same priorities.
TheDarkestOfAngels Wrote:Not to mention people like Capernicus, Galileo, Newton, and numerous others.
Sir Isaac Newton believed in alchemy. That’s right; the man who gave us the laws of gravity also thought he could turn base material into gold. Henry Ford was a documented anti-Semite. Those beliefs didn’t change the fact that he launched a billion dollar car industry. The man who is the lead on the human genome project is a born-again Christian. Thomas Jefferson, who wrote the Declaration of Independence, didn’t believe in Jesus’s divinity. None of these beliefs factor into the validity and beauty of their work. (Well, ‘beauty’ is subjective with Ford, as I drive on and it’s a piece of shite, let me tell you) I’m not launching anything at you, TDoA, just jumping off your springboard to make a point.
Quote:Catholicism is not irrational because you cannot use reason to demonstrate that it is irrational. You can say that it is not necessarily true, to which I would respond, why yes, that is exactly what Jesus teaches us when He says that one must come to God with faith. That is actually a very rational thing for Jesus to say as it is irrational to say that one can have a rational knowledge of the Divine, as the Divine is not natural or temporal, but supernatural and eternal.That’s all well and good, but don’t say that there is ‘proof’, a concept requiring rationale, if you’re going to claim that it’s irrational anyway.
Quote:You are militantly ignorant. You do not seek the truth. You just insult people on baseless bullshit.
Hitler was not a fine Catholic; you are a liar.
If I asked you both to state sources proving your claims, I’d put my money on Min to come up with actual documentation, including primary sources from Hitler himself and his surrounding family and friends. If you’re going to call him a liar, back that shit up. Also, he didn’t insult you personally – he might have insulted your beliefs. And he was quite polite. Funny you tell Kichi to grow up when you sound like you need to relearn the concept of “sticks and stones”.
Quote:Anti-Semitism has always been condemned by the Church, when the Church is speaking as a whole.
[whooping with laughter]
Right. And that’s why Jews from Siberia to England were made to wear identifying accessories and hold only certain jobs…because this wasn’t a religion-wide hatred. Please remember that Christianity was the dominant religion in all of those places. Of course now it’s great PR to say that the church never publicly condoned such acts, but that’s the same as the Pope saying he would never condone a child molester…while covering up the evidence that it happened and barely punishing the individual who committed the crime.
Quote:Anger is virtuous at times.
Translation: I know it’s one of the Seven Deadly Sins…except when it’s useful to me.
Quote:And last and certainly not least, who defines what is Christian like? I promise you that it is not your stupid opinion. Do not go about saying "that wasn't very Christian of you" when you know nothing of Christianity.“Judge not lest ye be judged” – pillar of your religion, yes? So far, you’ve taken a few posts out of here and made quick judgments of everyone.
Quote:I will say that you represent your atheist community in a vile and stupid way.Having actually seen Shell in action in other areas besides this forum, I can tell you this isn’t true. Not because I think she cares what you think about her, or because I think she needs defending, but because I think you need to know you shouldn’t be so quick to assume a damn thing about someone who’s spoken less than a thousand words to you. Shell has, to my knowledge, never insulted anyone personally even if she didn’t believe what they did and has been a paragon of politeness and historical knowledge on this forum and elsewhere. You want something more of a real insult? Take your ad hominems and stick ‘em where the sun don’t shine.
Quote:But I would ask that you and minimalist refrain from stupid arguments like, Hitler was a Catholic so Catholics are evil. Or some priests committed atrocities in the past so Catholics are evil, as if atheist are as pure as the wind driven snow.
Neither one of them said that.
Quote:Can you disprove the existence of the non-physical comedian telling me knock-knock jokes telepathically?Void, suddenly a bunch of things about you become all so clear.
Quote:You all have no respect for any view other than your own, or a view close to it.
One of the kindest, most generous, and wonderful men I know is a Christian. I don’t have to share his theological views to respect him or his.
You said you think that people who interacted with you in an everyday way would like you well enough. I suggest you apologize, take a breath, and realize you shouldn’t have come in here with your fists up. Atheists and theists get along quite well here in a civilized manner. If you want to discuss why you think Catholicism is great, that’s fine, but maybe you should have said “This is what I believe, how about you?” and gone from there.
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In eragon elves are atheists...
