Meaningfulness v meaninglessness; theism vs atheism;

[dqualk]

lol this forum is useless. I actually came here becuaes my friend said that there were really intelligent people here and he was curious how they would respond to what I say. Well apparently you respond with massive amounts of insults. I did not insult anyone personally, except minimalist and shell b who insulted me first, and I essentially insulted them by saying they are insulting.

How evil you are to speak so cruelly to another. You know as a Christian who important God is to me. Yet you do not even take the least amount of respect into consideration. All I'm saying is that God can be the something that makes things make sense, the unmvoed mover. This is the same reason Aristotle postulated that an atemporal being must exist. Within atheism there is no sense. There is just illusion. There is really no thought and ultimately everything is passing into the great nihil. Christianity is far from being obviously true when based on reason alone, and I never claimed it was. A lot of the stuff thevoid is argueing against me about I never used as an arguement. I never said you should believe God becasue of x rational reason.

I get the feeling that most of you who have posted on here are not concerned with any kind of dialouge, you just jump at the chance to insult people becuase you are so arrogant. You have lied to yourself that you have some kind of rational high ground from which you can belittle people. The fact is I am in good company. I did not come on here or start this post to prove God with reason. Far from it. Once again my point is to say that a Christian DOES say that there is intrinsic value. The value judgements are of God are not the same value judgements as ours as there are ultimate. Yes this kind of power does not exist within a temporal realm, but we do not have the tools by which to peek into an eternal realm to see how things work in a temporal realm, so we cannot think about it. I for one believe in intrinsic value, somethings are good, somethigns are beautiful, some things are bad, some things are evil. I know this is true because it is a priori to me. I have come to the conclusion that there is nothing within this temporal realm that could make something intrinsically good etc so I know that there must be another realm that does not experience change, and is an eternal realm from which all good things flow.

If you would stop being blinded by hate for me you would see where my position is. I am not saying atheist are dumb or that they don't make sense, I have respect for SOME* atheists I have none, as of now for most of you. And frankly I'm not sure anyone would after the way you've treated me. Shame shame shame

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You all have no respect for any view other than your own, or a view close to it.

[Rhizomorph13]

dqualk,

You might find some enlightening information on our "Important information for theists." page:

http://atheistforums.org/thread-3559.html

It might explain why you received such a negative reaction when you came here. We have a few theists that frequent these forums and even have a theist moderator to add in some balance. This forum is all about discussion, you just hit some hot button issues that piss some of us off. Please refrain from trying to convince us with repetition, we've heard the unmoved mover line, what else ya got? The topic of God is an interesting one and I've learned a lot by participating here. We all take some lumps and sometimes it can feel like trial by fire, but it isn't from hate that people react the way they do, it is mostly just a different viewpoint. We don't know you enough to hate you.

[dqualk]

dqualk,

You might find some enlightening information on our "Important information for theists." page:

http://atheistforums.org/thread-3559.html

It might explain why you received such a negative reaction when you came here. We have a few theists that frequent these forums and even have a theist moderator to add in some balance. This forum is all about discussion, you just hit some hot button issues that piss some of us off. Please refrain from trying to convince us with repetition, we've heard the unmoved mover line, what else ya got? The topic of God is an interesting one and I've learned a lot by participating here. We all take some lumps and sometimes it can feel like trial by fire, but it isn't from hate that people react the way they do, it is mostly just a different viewpoint. We don't know you enough to hate you.

lol well fair enough. I'll check out that page. Yeah I'm sure most of the people on here if they knew me long enough would like me ok, and if anything else, in everyday intereactions would be respectful.

I still feel like there is a crisis. I'm not trying to "prove" anything. I only meant to say that I feel like everyone desires an objective truth, and an objective right and wrong but that we realize that rationally that is impossible, but if it is true that there is an objective right and wrong then there is something else that is outside of our temporal experience, or something akin to this. I know many will say that this crisis does not justify wish fulfillment, and maybe they have a point, but I still feel like my company has a more whollistic and compelling response.

[tackattack]

Respect is earned here not given based on an objective moral authority like God, this is an atheist forum. It is apparently possible though to gain respect by not reacting to the harshness of the environment here with a retaliatory mindset. Just because you're "girded up" at all times does not mean you must react impatiently with a sharp tongue.

Bible quotes here

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Check out James 3:6-8 if you're having issues with your tongue because we should always remember 1 John 3:18

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I agree that lots of people seek objective truth and objective right and wrong, despite it being irrational. I don't think it's a crisis, people have been doing that for centuries. The more Science unveils though the less we wonder about things in general, which could factor into your "crisis" mentality.

[Edwardo Piet]

In response to Doubtvsfaith,

*Gets hopes up*

I suppose the only point I'm trying to make is that there are legitimate systems of belief within Theism which account for an objective reason.

Not if those objective reasons are false.

This is important because it allows us to be what we are, moral creatures.

No. Whether there is objective morality or not we're still the same as we always were.

Each of us have within us the conviction that we are meaningful

Subjectively, yes. But we don't all believe we have objective meaning. I thought we were dealing with objective meaning?

and that there is in fact an objective right and wrong.

No, we don't all have that conviction. Only those of us who believe in objective morality have that conviction.

We all acknowledge a broken world, where something is missing.

No, that's a matter of perspective, once again. It depends what your subjective meaning is regardless of whether there is any objective meaning.

Why do you keep claiming that these things apply to everyone? How do they?

This thing that is missing is the unmoved mover

How?

I believe Christianity more than any other system gives an account that best fills that hole that we know exists.

So you believe it. So what? That doesn't make it true. What's your point?

Within Christianity I believe that Catholicism has the greatest claim to being the actual body that has guarded and handed down the teachings of Christ.

How is that true?

The former statement is beyond the scope of this discussiong, and frankly I do not beleive it would make any sense without first passing the initial hurdle of believeing in a God that is omnipotent and omnibenevelont.

What is the point of your statement?

After which one would accept a personal God who seeks to fellowship with us, I believe Christianity best suits the purpose, in every way, rationally and intuitively.

And how is that true?

Once that hurdle is passed I beleive one will come to the conclusion that Jesus' teachings make most sense within Catholicism.

Whether that conclusion is true or not is of course another matter.

I do not even intend to argue the latter two points because they are points that are built upon way more elementary points that would have to be made first.

Are you going to substantiate any of your points at all?

Catholicism is not irrational because you can not use reason to demonstrate that it is irrational.

You have your own rationality but the question is whether it's valid or not.

You can say that it is not necessarily true, to which I would respond, why yes, that is exactly what Jesus teaches us when He says that one must come to God with faith.

I say: "How is it true?"

That is actually a very rational thing for Jesus to say as it is irrational to say that one can have a rational knowledge of the Divine, as the Divine is not natural or temporal, but supernatural and eternal.

How is any of that true?

One could claim that it is irrational to believe that someone could be risen from the dead, but this is not irrational if one presupposes that there is a Supernatural being.

And how is such a presupposition rational?

I am not saying that this should be convincing, only that it is certainly not irrational,

The question is whether your rationality is at all valid, and how are your claims true?

It seems to me that when one hits on the ressurection you're still hitting on the same point I intend to make in this forum, that is that is death and meaninglessness the ultimate reality, or is it possible that there is the Supernatural.

Outside tautology meaning in life is a matter of opinion. If you believe there is objective meaning (besides tautology) that doesn't make it true, and you can find life equally meaningful simply by having subjective meaning. After all, any so-called "objective meaning" can be subjectively viewed as meaningless, and any so-called "objective meaninglessness" can be subjectively viewed as meaningful. It is not objective meaning that matters then, it is subjective meaning. I say, only believe in objective meaning if it is actually true. And how is it true?

[Zen Badger]

Within Christianity man is the pinnacle of creation and he is loved and his meaing flows from an eternal omnipotent source.

And here class is a perfect demonstration of what I stated earlier.

Being unable to face the reality of a vast and uncaring universe in which the subject is a microscopically
insignificant mote he instead turns to a paradigm that assures him that he really is important in the grand scheme of things, really, really.

And thusly, safe and sound in the pink security blanket of religion that he has tightly wrapped around himself he can suck his thumb and reassure himself of his moral superiority to those of us who are not scared of reality.

P.s Adolf was a catholic, read Mein Kampf and look at the deals the Nazi party struck with the Vatican.

pps. Kichigainecko really is an Elf, trust me, I know.

[KichigaiNeko]

lol this forum is useless.

And on this forum you have the right to voice that opinion.....it is in error though

I actually came here becuaes my friend said that there were really intelligent people here and he was curious how they would respond to what I say.

Sounds like you were set up by this 'friend' of yours

Well apparently you respond with massive amounts of insults. I did not insult anyone personally, except minimalist and shell b who insulted me first, and I essentially insulted them by saying they are insulting.

This IS an ATHEIST forum ...what did you expect??? Warm fluffy bunny greetings regarding your 'skydaddy'??

How evil you are to speak so cruelly to another.

Evil is the Catholic church here ...sorry buddy but this is a fact. Cruel?? Where is it written that life is NOT cruel??

You know as a Christian who important God is to me.

Yes I know many Mental Health Clients who say the same thing

Yet you do not even take the least amount of respect into consideration.

I think tacky has the right idea...respect is EARNED

All I'm saying is that God can be the something that makes things make sense, the unmvoed mover. This is the same reason Aristotle postulated that an atemporal being must exist.

Again..this is YOUR opinion and I will fight to the death for you to have it BUT don't expect me to support you in your delusion...How are your therapy sessions going??

Within atheism there is no sense. There is just illusion. There is really no thought and ultimately everything is passing into the great nihil.

This is where YOU are in error...Atheism makes MORE sense to us...this is our Right and you have no business telling us otherwise

Christianity is far from being obviously true when based on reason alone, and I never claimed it was. A lot of the stuff thevoid is argueing against me about I never used as an arguement. I never said you should believe God becasue of x rational reason.

Thankyou...you are sounding like a troll....trying to convert 'the heathens' ....go away

I get the feeling that most of you who have posted on here are not concerned with any kind of dialouge, you just jump at the chance to insult people becuase you are so arrogant.

So far YOU are the one who has been insulting ...You in your ARROGANCE who think you are chosen and special....grow up

You have lied to yourself that you have some kind of rational high ground from which you can belittle people. The fact is I am in good company.

YES! religion is ALL about belittling others NOT of YOUR particular faith...YES???

I did not come on here or start this post to prove God with reason. Far from it. Once again my point is to say that a Christian DOES say that there is intrinsic value. The value judgements are of God are not the same value judgements as ours as there are ultimate.

And your evidence for this is???

Yes this kind of power does not exist within a temporal realm, but we do not have the tools by which to peek into an eternal realm to see how things work in a temporal realm, so we cannot think about it.

What ever you are smoking ...I would give it up NOW!!!

I for one believe in intrinsic value, somethings are good, somethigns are beautiful, some things are bad, some things are evil. I know this is true because it is a priori to me. I have come to the conclusion that there is nothing within this temporal realm that could make something intrinsically good etc so I know that there must be another realm that does not experience change, and is an eternal realm from which all good things flow.

Including the things that (as you say) are bad, what a lot of gobbldy gook, (and you seriously believe what you are saying??)....there is no other 'realm' imho....but feel free to think so if it makes your childish life easier.

If you would stop being blinded by hate for me you would see where my position is.

No one here "Hates" you..that is paranoia spurred on from a religious perspective.... I doubt very much anyone 'here' is blind.

I am not saying atheist are dumb or that they don't make sense, I have respect for SOME* atheists I have none, as of now for most of you. And frankly I'm not sure anyone would after the way you've treated me. Shame shame shame

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O'RlY??? Your WHOLE post has been to denigrate this forum, it's people, and it's reason for being ...what a funny little hypocrite you are

You all have no respect for any view other than your own, or a view close to it.

Here we have a great respect for well thought out, intelligent and adult reasoning.....you perhaps should get in touch with tacky to learn how an adult interacts with a forum like this.

NO............... We have no time for childish wishful thinking
NO............... We have no time for people wanting to 'PUSH' religion down our throats

YES.............. We have the best intentions regarding intelligent debate
YES.............. We will slam your skydaddy at every opportunity because...

THIS IS AN ATHEIST FORUM!!

Get with the program or perhaps your thoughts would be better utilised on another forum??

Shheeeeeeesh!!

PS..fixed your thread but left the spelling errors in for you...try iSpell or Spellcheck...it helps with credulity...trust me on this one!

[Edwardo Piet]

I know what you mean(I mean - for fucks sake!). If I tell a theist that their beliefs are an entire load of complete and absolute total and utter fucking nonsensical bullshit I am not insulting them. I ridicule their beliefs because their beliefs are ridiculous. I don't ridicule them because they may not be ridiculous.

[KichigaiNeko]

Poor dqualk ....

1. You are a catatonic
2. You seem to enjoy fairy-stories
3. You believe anything anyone tells you (so long as they are xtian)
4. You seem to still desperately need to believe in Santa Claus

We have our AWWW moments as you put them (how quaint)
I might suggest that you look at http://atheistforums.org/thread-5025.html for AWWW factor.

We live very meaningful and successful lives sans your sky-daddy (or any other version there of) I understand there is every reason to believe that your sky-daddy does not exist. But then it really doesn't make a great fairy-story and there is no happily ever after.

I can't beleive a person with an elf as their picture is trying to tell me about fairy tales.

Believe it Baby!! Ummm why are you so hung up about icons and avatars??? You believe in some poor male type figure in pain nailed to a cross don't you??

You are militantly ignorant. It is a shame. You do your cause no justice by being stupid and insulting. To say that Theism is believing anything anyone tells you, or the same thing as believing in Santa Clause is to say that some of the greatest minds of all time, and indeed some of the greatest minds living today, are not only incorrect but absolutely stupid.

Correction..NONE of those 'great minds ' you refer to are theistic. Mind you ...I would rather believe in Santa Claus than your Jeebus/ God/ Allah

Grow up you child. You're not a whorish looking dark elf, you are a human being, created in the Imago Dei with meaning, not fake decietful meaning, but real meaning which stems from the love of an eternal God, not subject to temporality.

Fuck yeah!! I've been called worse and by better than you kid. There is no god TO love and an uncaring universe will just recycle my atoms for the next supernova....just what is your point ?? Other than trying to insult me?? Let alone another alien species?? What a lovely little 'xtian' YOU are...nasty piece of work

You have no idea what kind of dialouge that I am involved with.

Yeah...mind games are the pits eh??? Try talking to REAL people for a change.

Perhaps I was raised an athesit and converted to Catholicism? It is certainly not unbelievable as there are many very intelligent people who have done so.

Many 'mental health clients/intelligent people' unable to come to grips with the Real world have done so... You are just riding on your own guilt trip (seems to me)

You are a shameful person, and I believe you are one of those who atheism transformed into a worse person.

No... actually I am one of those whom Catholicism has turned atheistic....

That is not to say that all who are or become atheist become less moral as a result, but I'm sure you were one of them. Shame on you.

And shame on YOU for coming here as a guest of this house and defiling it with your rhetoric....naughty person you!!

There is no such thing as objective meaning or success within a material-only world. You're success is another man's very real failure; it is wholly subjective.

Another reason to ditch religion...what a nasty thing to say!!

Your meaning is ultimately a lie that you beleive so that you do not commit suicide. As they say, the most important question in philosophy is, "should I kill myself?" For a Christian, and many Theists, the answer is simple, no there is a God who loves me and desires me to live and grow, to truly succeed. For an atheist the answer is either yes, or no becuase it is more pleasing at the moment to my material self to believe in a lie that anything I do is actually meaningful, or are you thinking at all?

KILL YOURSELF NOW dqualk AND SAVE THE PLANET THE TROUBLE!!

Most likely you are just random atoms banging around producing some illusion that appears to be thought. Ultimately you become some utilitarian epicurean, who can no longer objectively say that there is a Truth, or at least an objectively meaningful Truth. And in this sense Hitler is a hero for those who enjoy Hitler's lie (or the materialist subjective truth).

And just what is wrong with Hedonism?? I am here, now is all I have, I will enjoy this life to the fullest and best of my capacity and the next supernovae can have my atoms.

Hitler was a Catholic...and as a Catholic _read Catatonic _ he was pretty fucked up emotionally and mentally...


A bit like you seem to be

[Edwardo Piet]

I can't beleive a person with an elf as their picture is trying to tell me about fairy tales.

There is one valid difference: She is aware that her fairy tales are fairy tales.