Help with Islam

[Of_Tomato]

Right. Im debating with this muslim dude and all the sudden he attacked me with something from the Quran.
Thought that perhaps someone could tell me what he really means by this and give me the best suited comback. I know im lazy but hey, im hungover.

It started with him telling me that there is things that scientists discovered pretty recently that is described a long time ago in the quran. I asked him what and this is what he presented:

Orbits

While referring to the Sun and the Moon in the Qur'an, it is emphasized that each moves in a definite orbit.

"It is He Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. They swim along, each in an orbit. "
...(The Qur'an, 21:33)

It is mentioned in another verse, too, that the Sun is not static but moves in a definite orbit:

"And the sun runs to its resting place. That is the decree of the Almighty, the All-Knowing. "
(The Qur'an, 37:38)

These facts communicated in the Qur'an have been discovered by astronomical observations in our age. According to the calculations of experts on astronomy, the Sun is traveling at the enormous speed of 720,000 kilometers an hour in the direction of the star Vega in a particular orbit called the Solar Apex. This means that the sun travels roughly 17,280,000 kilometers a day. Along with the Sun, and all planets and satellites within the gravitational system of the Sun also travel the same distance. In addition, all the stars in the universe are in a similar planned motion.

That the entire universe is full of paths and orbits such as this one, is written in the Qur'an as follows:

"By the sky full of paths and orbits."
(The Qur'an, 51:7)

There are about 200 billion galaxies in the universe, consisting of nearly 200 billion stars in each. Most of these stars have planets, and most of those planets have satellites. All of these heavenly bodies move in very precisely computed orbits. For millions of years, each has been "swimming" along in its own orbit in perfect harmony and order with all the others. Moreover, many comets also move along in the orbits determined for them.

The orbits in the universe do not only belong to celestial bodies. The galaxies also travel at enormous speeds in computed, planned orbits. During these movements, none of these celestial bodies cuts across another's path, or collides with another.

Surely at the time the Qur'an was revealed, mankind did not possess today's telescopes or advanced observation technologies to observe millions of kilometres of space, nor the modern knowledge of physics or astronomy. Therefore, at that time, it was not possible to determine scientifically that space is "full of paths and orbits" as stated in the verse. However, this was openly declared to us in the Qur'an that was revealed at that time:-because the Qur'an is the word of God.

Like many other comets in the universe, Halley's comet, seen above, also moves in a planned orbit. It has a specific orbit and it moves in this orbit in a perfect harmony with other celestial bodies.

All celestial bodies including planets, satellites of these planets, stars, and even galaxies have their own orbits that have been determined with very delicate computations. The One Who established this perfect order and maintains it is God, Who created the entire universe.

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I guess he is trying to say that those quotes is proof.

[downbeatplumb]

But its vague enough to mean a lot of other interpretations too. You can make this shit fit whatever you want it too. If it had turned out that the constalations were fixed to crystal spheres that moved in the sky this description would fit that as well. The fact that the constalations moved was well known at the time as was the movement of the planets.

[Of_Tomato]

But its vague enough to mean a lot of other interpretations too. You can make this shit fit whatever you want it too. If it had turned out that the constalations were fixed to crystal spheres that moved in the sky this description would fit that as well. The fact that the constalations moved was well known at the time as was the movement of the planets.

Thanks mate. Were in the same line of thougt but all them shots of captain morgan has really fucked me up today.

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He continues. Christ.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUUPYs0gE...re=related

"one is that allah mentioned that the earth is egg shapedwhilst the non-believers used to believe it was square1400 yrs ago"And we have made the earth egg shaped".[Al-Qur’an 79:30]The Arabic word Dahaha means egg shaped. It also means an expanse. Dahaha is derived from Duhiya which specifically refers to the egg of an ostrich which is geospherical in shape, exactly like the shape of the earth.."


Im not used to discussing with muslims. Do they work like this? Throwing quotes and videos around as evidence? Atleast the christians wanna go head to head but this guy..i dont know..im confused.

[Darwinian]

There is nothing in the Qu'ran that wasn't already known about at the time. Most of it was postulated by the ancient Greeks as I have discovered time and time again through similar conversations.

You may as well claim that H.G. Wells was a prophet because of all the futuristic things he for-sore in his novels.

Even then, as dbp said, most of it is so incredibly vague that it only seems to make sense after science has made the claim. This is a book that Nostradamus would have been proud of!

[downbeatplumb]

There is nothing in the Qu'ran that wasn't already known about at the time. Most of it was postulated by the ancient Greeks as I have discovered time and time again through similar conversations.

You may as well claim that H.G. Wells was a prophet because of all the futuristic things he for-sore in his novels.

Even then, as dbp said, most of it is so incredibly vague that it only seems to make sense after science has made the claim. This is a book that Nostradamus would have been proud of!

The famous quatrains (spelling?) again, poetic writing that can be made to fit anything with a bit of linguistic wriggling.

The most successfull religions are the vaguest that only make fuzzy predictions.
Like 'there will be a second coming' but not giving an actual date.
That was were the mayan religions fell down, they predicted that if you sacrificed so many people the rains would come, they killed the right amount of people, no rain, after a few years of this the religions lost their strangle hold.(or so the theory goes)

[The Skeptic]

There are about 200 billion galaxies in the universe, consisting of nearly 200 billion stars in each. Most of these stars have planets, and most of those planets have satellites. All of these heavenly bodies move in very precisely computed orbits. For millions of years, each has been "swimming" along in its own orbit in perfect harmony and order with all the others. Moreover, many comets also move along in the orbits determined for them.

Well, I can say one thing as an astronomy hobbyist and as one who has taken college courses on it : The celestial bodies do not move in "perfect harmony and order with all the others".

Last time I checked, asteroid and comet collisions are not "perfect harmony". The orbits also undergo precession ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbital_precession ) , and their gravity may interfere with each other, and orbital paths may cross such as Neptune and Pluto. Don't forget that not everything is in a "perfect" orbit, many things are not perfectly aligned with the ecliptic plane, and some captured satellites move in backwards orbits. Don't forget that Uranus is practically rolling around the sun instead of spinning like a tilted top. This is thought to be due to a large collision at some point in its history.

That's hardly PERFECT, very good, perhaps, but not perfect. And the reason it is so good today is that the solar system has been around for billions of years, and most of the major collisions between bodies has happened, the planets have largely cleared their orbital paths, etc. It's an example of a self-organizing system in nature. Creationists LOVE to say that systems cant organize themselves in nature. Then you quip back that the laws of nature allow for it, then they say "Where did the laws of nature come from", and they give you this dumb look like you started speaking Aramaic when you say "The laws of nature are not given laws, the speed of light isn't a cosmic speed limit. The laws of nature are descriptive of what we observe, not prescriptive, and are open to change."



Now, as far as

"By the sky full of paths and orbits."
(The Qur'an, 51:7)

Even in an Earth centered cosmology, they still thought that the planets, etc, might rotate around the Earth. They didn't think the Earth itself was spinning, instead everything else is.


As another poster said, these things are as vague as anything Nostradamus said, and some of these ideas had already been floating around. Calling an astronomical measurement of orbital speed precise is like measuring the height of someone and being astounded that "they are EXACTLY 6 feet tall! Who would have guessed my accurate measuring tape would yield precise results!?" or being slack jawed that an officer measured you going exactly 6 miles over the speed limit.

[thesummerqueen]

Don't they attribute the rise of humanism in the Renaissance era to that sort of thing as well? God abandoned Europe during the Black Plague and every religious thing they tried did fuck all to stop it...gradually people began turning back to the Greek and Roman sciences for their answers instead of the Bible.

[ruhollah]

This holy book is considered to be a poetic miracle. The average person can interpret these verses in their favor.

To have a true sense of what these verses mean, they should consult s experts who study Arabian history and ancient semantic linguistics. These experts have a better sense of what these verses are referring to.

[KichigaiNeko]

This holy book is considered to be a poetic miracle. The average person can interpret these verses in their favor.

I understand it to mean that it is a miracle that a desert dwelling goat herder had the nous to steal material from other goat herding desert dwellers and plagiarise material that can be found long before said goat herding desert dwellers even thought of writing, not to mention poetry???

To have a true sense of what these verses mean, they should consult s experts who study Arabian history and ancient semantic linguistics. These experts have a better sense of what these verses are referring to.

Well yes they do hence my comments above.

[ruhollah]

KichigaiNeko

The prophet came at a time when the average Arab had no problem burying female babies alive. At a time when almost everyone in the community called him a kook, threw stones at him, pissed on his front door, harassed his family, ...etc. The people of his time treated him in some of the worst ways imaginable.

However in the end, once he passed away everyone he knew converted to follow this religion. Why? There were Christians and Jewish communities all over in Arabia and all of those guys converted. Why were these guys convinced? What did the prophet do to have this kind of following?

I suggest you study the text, watch some lectures on youtube to have a better understanding. People at his time told him upfront that he was a kook, and he jacked all these stories from christianity/Judaism and yet they were all convinced in the end.

This holy book is considered to be a poetic miracle. The average person can interpret these verses in their favor.

I understand it to mean that it is a miracle that a desert dwelling goat herder had the nous to steal material from other goat herding desert dwellers and plagiarise material that can be found long before said goat herding desert dwellers even thought of writing, not to mention poetry???

To have a true sense of what these verses mean, they should consult s experts who study Arabian history and ancient semantic linguistics. These experts have a better sense of what these verses are referring to.

Well yes they do hence my comments above.