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Scientific knowledge versus spiritual knowledge
January 9, 2016 at 12:48 pm
(January 9, 2016 at 12:07 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: LadyForCamus...if their objections to my argument made sense...why don't you put into your own words and refute it? If you going to watch me go against a bunch of people and I am one person against many, if you don't comprehend it yourself and can't put into your own words, obviously, it will seem like the many people rejecting the argument outnumber me (which probably is not true if we were to present this argument to the masses, in reality, most of the world believes int he moral argument which is even more simpler argument (IF God doesn't exist, then neither does goodness. Goodness exists. Therefore God exists)) and you will say hey they got reasons...but you should discuss with me, put it into your own words, and I will respond.
Instead of having others think for you, put into your own words.
And again I will say: you just asserting that goodness can't exist independent of a God is nonsensical, and not in any way a coherent argument for your beliefs.
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RE: Scientific knowledge versus spiritual knowledge
January 9, 2016 at 12:51 pm
(January 9, 2016 at 12:48 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: (January 9, 2016 at 12:07 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: LadyForCamus...if their objections to my argument made sense...why don't you put into your own words and refute it? If you going to watch me go against a bunch of people and I am one person against many, if you don't comprehend it yourself and can't put into your own words, obviously, it will seem like the many people rejecting the argument outnumber me (which probably is not true if we were to present this argument to the masses, in reality, most of the world believes int he moral argument which is even more simpler argument (IF God doesn't exist, then neither does goodness. Goodness exists. Therefore God exists)) and you will say hey they got reasons...but you should discuss with me, put it into your own words, and I will respond.
Instead of having others think for you, put into your own words.
And again I will say: you just asserting that goodness can't exist independent of a God is nonsensical, and not in any way a coherent argument for your beliefs.
Why do you suppose it convinces Theists but not Atheists? Why do theists see goodness that is must be linked to God but not Atheists?
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Scientific knowledge versus spiritual knowledge
January 9, 2016 at 12:52 pm
Because...like Fox Mulder, theists " Want to Believe"!
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RE: Scientific knowledge versus spiritual knowledge
January 9, 2016 at 12:53 pm
(January 9, 2016 at 12:52 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: Because...like Fox Mulder, theists " Want to Believe"!
So it can be said Atheists don't want to believe?
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RE: Scientific knowledge versus spiritual knowledge
January 9, 2016 at 12:54 pm
(This post was last modified: January 9, 2016 at 12:54 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(January 9, 2016 at 12:45 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: It would repetitious but in your own words and then I can talk to you as opposed to many people.
To kind of illustrate how your objection doesn't make sense to me.
This...this right here, is where the misery begins. You are using a different definition or standard for sense, than the rest of us. Do you expect to reach agreement with anyone when you do not use the same standard for judging what is or is not sensible? If we want to talk about what makes sense, between us, we cannot defer to varying and individually meanings for that term and then expect resolution.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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Scientific knowledge versus spiritual knowledge
January 9, 2016 at 12:58 pm
(January 9, 2016 at 12:53 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: (January 9, 2016 at 12:52 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: Because...like Fox Mulder, theists " Want to Believe"!
So it can be said Atheists don't want to believe?
No. We just DON'T. "Want" has nothing to do with it. I have corrected you on this TWICE already in this thread. This makes three. Why don't you begin by actually reading and comprehending what people write to you before you throw assertions around. It is very insulting that you refuse to accept my world view. It is the theist's great straw man to say atheists just don't WAN'T to believe. Let it go.
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RE: Scientific knowledge versus spiritual knowledge
January 9, 2016 at 1:00 pm
(January 9, 2016 at 12:45 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: To kind of illustrate how your objection doesn't make sense to me. If a person argues:
If God is benevolent, then there would be no evils/suffering in this world.
There are evils/suffering in this world.
God is not benevolent or doesn't exist.
Does it make sense to say "You have to believe in God to believe in that argument?". No because he is using it as a just hypothetical to argue that benevolent God is not compatible with this world. In other words he is using God to show God is impossible (specially if we define ultimate being as requiring to be benevolent (ie. to be worthy of ultimate reverence (worship) it must be benevolent).
That is not to say he is even assuming God exists or is even possible for the argument to work out. For example, it maybe God is rational impossibiltiy for other reasons (contradictions in attributes for example or whatever reason). However this argument works if premises are true regardless if God is possible or not. It doesn't assume he is.
I don't know what else I can show that I am not assuming a Creator exists for the argument to work, It's showing in a hypothetical world hypothetically in any possible world with any possible Creator sort of thing.
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Scientific knowledge versus spiritual knowledge
January 9, 2016 at 1:03 pm
(January 9, 2016 at 12:54 pm)Rhythm Wrote: (January 9, 2016 at 12:45 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: It would repetitious but in your own words and then I can talk to you as opposed to many people.
To kind of illustrate how your objection doesn't make sense to me.
This...this right here, is where the misery begins. You are using a different definition or standard for sense, than the rest of us. Do you expect to reach agreement with anyone when you do not use the same standard for judging what is or is not sensible? If we want to talk about what makes sense, between us, we cannot defer to varying and individually meanings for that term and then expect resolution.
Exactly. 'Sense' to Mystic is, whatever feels right to him. Thinking seems to have little to do with it.
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RE: Scientific knowledge versus spiritual knowledge
January 9, 2016 at 1:04 pm
(January 9, 2016 at 12:58 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: (January 9, 2016 at 12:53 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: So it can be said Atheists don't want to believe?
No. We just DON'T. "Want" has nothing to do with it. I have corrected you on this TWICE already in this thread. This makes three. Why don't you begin by actually reading and comprehending what people write to you before you throw assertions around. It is very insulting that you refuse to accept my world view. It is the theist's great straw man to say atheists just don't WAN'T to believe. Let it go.
Let's get this straight.
The reason (not for anything else) Theists are convinced by the moral argument or that goodness is linked to God is because they want to believe. Nothing else.
So if this is true Atheists wanting to believe should make them reach the same conclusion as them.
So I'm showing you by your statement, it would mean Atheists don't want to believe.
If you say it's a factor, but not the only reason, then yes Atheists can want or not want to believe, but have different reasons for not believing.
But then you shouldn't say Theists believe simply because they want to either.
So again, let's go back to the question, why do you think Theists (majority of the world) believe goodness is necessarily linked to God?
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RE: Scientific knowledge versus spiritual knowledge
January 9, 2016 at 1:05 pm
Yay, a pointless non-sequitur. Again demonstrating that our standards for sensibility are wildly divergent.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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