Gay, Catholic and Doing Fine

[Regina]

Meh, do you. I think you're fucking crazy but okay

Just hope you don't regret it later

Got better shit to do than convince someone why they should want to have sex. That's kinda borderline rapey imo.

[Brian37]

If he is basing it on pragmatic reasons, like avoiding STDs, or simply not wanting to commit or financial reasons, those are real reasons. But male or female, gay or straight, monogamy or partnership does not need a reason based on an old book. 

Well I don't think it's a problematic reason. It's a matter of opinion. He's Catholic, not atheist, so of course you'll both have different ideas on what a "good reason" is.  The point is, it's his decision to make, and he claims to be happy with it.

Yes, that is our point, "Opinion", why do believers base their life decisions on old books? I am not talking about rights, everyone certainly is entitled to an "opinion".  I am talking about logic and reasons. "I like the club I belong to" isn't our argument. What is your logic that leads you to that conclusion, and what is the evidence that proves your logic and reasoning is sound.

Yes it is his decision, again, still not our argument. LOGIC AND EVIDENCE.

[Catholic_Lady]

Well I don't think it's a problematic reason. It's a matter of opinion. He's Catholic, not atheist, so of course you'll both have different ideas on what a "good reason" is.  The point is, it's his decision to make, and he claims to be happy with it.

Yes, that is our point, "Opinion", why do believers base their life decisions on old books? I am not talking about rights, everyone certainly is entitled to an "opinion".  I am talking about logic and reasons. "I like the club I belong to" isn't our argument. What is your logic that leads you to that conclusion, and what is the evidence that proves your logic and reasoning is sound.

Yes it is his decision, again, still not our argument. LOGIC AND EVIDENCE.

Ok, so basically you're not angry that he's celibate, you're angry that he's Catholic.  

I guess... uh... sorry? 

[Wyrd of Gawd]

---

Because you sit here and tell us that we are substandard humans because we don't believe in your stupid old book.  It gets really annoying after, like, the millionth time. You have no justifiable, rational reason to believe the damn thing is worth more than toilet paper, let alone structure your entire life around it.  And then find the balls to look down other people -from- of it.  

The point was that it's hard but rewarding enough to him that it made him very happy. I'm pretty sure he's not wishing ill will upon anyone. At least that's not at all what he said.

---

Intent aside, it is still a judgmental attitude, and one not based on modern understanding of biology. It is still and old book and that book is still chalk full of xenophobia and bigotry, which teaches self loathing and dependency on the cosmic boss. There is no polite way to put it.

You are doomed even before you can formulate an adult thought. And based on what? "Sins of the father". Why should you or I for that matter have to run a lifetime of a gauntlet from birth to death because of what Adam and Eve did? Not that it was a real story, but the ideal is utterly vile to me looking back now. That would be like blaming me for slavery even though I wasn't around back then.

AND the worst part is as the story goes, Adam and Eve were innocent, and they ended up being poker chips in a bet between God and Lucifer. They had no say in the set up, they were given no explanation, they were not asked for their input beyond Adam getting to name the animals. And Eve is the very first story scapegoating a women, treating her as the cause as if Adam was her victim not partner. Looking at it now, both those characters as a motif are victims.

I know believers don't like viewing it in a negative light, I get that. But from Genesis all the way through the bible, humans are not treated as independent thinkers they are only treated as "thinkers" as long as they promote the tribe or glorify the tribe and defeat outsiders. AT BEST the books of Abraham will tolerate outsiders and minorities as long as they accept their place in the social order.

Once you buy that you are "chosen" of course from your point of view you are not being condescending, but to those who don't share your religion it does come across as such. 

Thats why we prefer believers try to stick to providing evidence, rather than preach about what they like believing. We know what you believe, many of us were in a religion. The real question believers need to ask themselves WHY do you feel the need to be "chosen". And unless you have scientific evidence that their is a superior race or religion, then all you can say is you picked a club you like.

There are 7 billion humans, 10,000s of sects of all the worlds major religions and even more small obscure religions. It seems to me absurd for any religion worldwide to claim to have special powers or even special insight as to human morality or even a working scientific understanding of why humans are either cruel or compassionate.

We don't think we are right based on mere opinion. And we don't think we are right because we think we are more moral or better. We too are still individuals. We take the position that there is no god because science currently is running at an increasing pace away from that gap answer. Our modern knowledge is leaving those old claims in the dust. Just like we know the earth is not flat, and that is ok. 

Giving up on old claims and bad claims is how humanity progresses and learns and grows.

All religions teach one doctrine:  Believe and obey without exception.  

Critical thinking and questions are to be avoided.  Do as you're told to do and how you're told to do it.  And if you do that you will go to heaven and not end up in hell (or the volcano).  

Ezekiel changed the rules to where every person is only responsible for his own sins.  Jesus reinforced that and Mohammed adopted that line of thinking.  So no one has to worry over what Adam & Eve did.  He only has to worry about what he does himself, under the revised rules.  Of course some governments continue to punish the sons for their fathers' crimes.  And in America we all like to blame the entire group for the crimes of the individual.

[Nay_Sayer]

Spoiler; You picked the wrong religion.

[Angrboda]

"What did you do to your leg?"
"What do you mean?"
"Well, I see you're walking around on crutches and I was just wondering what's wrong with your leg."
"Oh. There's nothing wrong with my leg."
"Then why the crutches?"
"My church teaches that it's sinful to walk on your left leg."
"What! Why is that?"
"Well it's okay to have left legs, it's just that it's disordered to use them."
"That doesn't explain it."
"Well it's unnatural."
"No it's not."
"Regardless, my church say it's a sin and I'm okay with that."
"Bloody crazy if you ask me."
"Say, would you sign my petition?"
"What's it say?"
"It says that two legged's can't get married."
"What?! Now wait a minute."

[Brian37]

Yes, that is our point, "Opinion", why do believers base their life decisions on old books? I am not talking about rights, everyone certainly is entitled to an "opinion".  I am talking about logic and reasons. "I like the club I belong to" isn't our argument. What is your logic that leads you to that conclusion, and what is the evidence that proves your logic and reasoning is sound.

Yes it is his decision, again, still not our argument. LOGIC AND EVIDENCE.

Ok, so basically you're not angry that he's celibate, you're angry that he's Catholic.  

I guess... uh... sorry? 

NO, where did I say I was angry at him for being celibate or Catholic? I was addressing his reasoning, not his rights. If he is doing it FOR himself FOR pragmatic reasons those are real reasons. If he is basing it on an old book of myth, sure he can do that, but WHY?

 NO damn, you are talking to a former Catholic so dont go there.

I don't care if he was Muslim, they have lots of people that don't like gays too, they as well use their Quran to justify calling it a "sin". Can you find liberal and moderate Muslims who wont murder them, but still think they shouldn't do it? YES.

But in both cases, my point is WHY are you basing your choices on a book used by others to tell you you are broken? LBGT people don't need that baggage. They have no more or no less problems in their lives than straight people. They don't need to be told they are broken.

I've had problems in my life, and still do today, but if I want to do something about them, I don't need someone with an old book of myth telling me my problems make me bad, my problems only make me human. That teaches people self loathing, it does not correct a problem with real solutions, and no being LGBT is not a "sin". That is a word used by people who don't like what other people do.

Is this too long for you?

[Cecelia]

I think what's ignored by Catholics is pretty simple:  They've taught this poor, unfortunate young man that there's something wrong with him.  Of course they see nothing wrong with this, because they see that something is wrong with them.

I remember when I first started experimenting sexually.  My first thoughts were of girls, not boys.  I was absolutely terrified.  I was sure there was something wrong with me.  Because that is what the bible taught.  I spent many guilt-wracked nights thinking that there was something wrong with me, that I was somehow broken.  And this is what the religion teaches people to feel.  The Catholic Church breaks people, and then tries putting them back together, deliberately leaving out pieces that don't conform to their way of life.

A friend of mine was put in reparation therapy 'out of love' by her parents.  For her, it was one of the worst experiences of her life.  She still won't quite talk about it.  All she'll say is the experience was, for her, basically hell.  And that her parents put her through it absolutely broke her. 

People love to say "He chose to be celibate."  If that makes you sleep better, then that's fine I guess.  But he didn't really choose celibacy.  Celibacy was chosen for him.  He was told that wanting to have a relationship with someone that he's attracted to is wrong.  And some Catholics and Christians and Muslims and Jews and whatever else have you apparently lack the empathy to understand how harmful this is.  They justify it with their word salads and their thousand year old books.  He says he's happy being celibate, so that's enough for them.  "It's a struggle, but Catholicism is supposed to be a struggle."  I wonder how many of those same people would choose to be celibate for life for their religion.  And not just SAY it, but actually go through with it.  Talk is easy.  Talk is cheap.  How many would forego sex for their entire lives because their religion told them to? 

It's a little sick that we live in a world where people can comfort themselves with the fact that they can justify denying gay people the right to get married because their god said so, and because one single gay person claims to be happy. They don't care how difficult it is for them;  in fact they justify it.  They say that it's good that it's difficult, because good things are hard.

The church breaks people.  And some of those who are part of that church, our Dear Topic Creator among them, take glee in telling gay people that they are only atheists so they can continue living their lifestyle.  They bash those who don't have the same values of them.  Therein lies the problem with religion.  They expect people to hold their values, and when they don't, they ostracize them, criticize them, and shun them.  And many of them do so gleefully.  They're like the parents of my friend (who are now reformed, and no longer Christian) were.  The well-being of the people they claim to love mattered less than what they wanted them to be.

This Love that is described, isn't love at all.  It's what's truly the perverted version of love. It's easy to say that you love someone when you use this definition of love, because that definition is empty and hallow.  There's nothing to it.  You can love your fellow man, just by saying you do.  That's because despite what they say -- that good things are hard -- they don't like doing things the hard way.  They can't find a way to love someone for who they are, regardless of what they do.  Instead they have to judge them, and often misjudge them.  What a terrible version of love that is.  Then again, I wonder if they can be blamed.  They were taught to believe these things.  That what the old testament describes of God is Love.  And it's not love any more than what they do is love.  And so long as that's their definition of love, they'll never truly have it.

[veoli]

Uh huh.  A few verses in Leviticus.  Along with a whole bunch of other OT laws that people no longer follow.  And you completely ignored the fact that Jesus strongly preached against divorce, but you just ignore him on that one.  Cherry-picking as well as judging and hating too, apparently.

I've never been divorced, and I believe that divorce is wrong. Period.

So, you are in error about my beliefs. I have neither cherry-picked nor judged nor hated in this regard.

Why is getting divorced wrong?

My parents are happier separate now than they were when they were together.

---

No it is made up bullshit.  Prove otherwise.  Go ahead.  I'll be waiting.  You don't even know who wrote the fucking old testament.  Nobody does.  So I don't know how the fuck anyone can say it's true.  And don't give me the JESUS bullshit either, because you can't prove Jesus said any of that either.  You have absolutely no evidence that proves that the bible is valid.  NONE.  Like the sheep you are, you'll continue following it.

Why are you so angry?

If you met me at a dinner party, you'd probably think I was a pretty nice person. You disagree with my views, but I haven't said anything particularly rude or out of line.

So, where is YOUR anger coming from, and why is it directed at me?

Saying something is intrinsically disordered is hateful. It spawns alot of hate.

[drfuzzy]

"What did you do to your leg?"
"What do you mean?"
"Well, I see you're walking around on crutches and I was just wondering what's wrong with your leg."
"Oh.  There's nothing wrong with my leg."
"Then why the crutches?"
"My church teaches that it's sinful to walk on your left leg."
"What!  Why is that?"
"Well it's okay to have left legs, it's just that it's disordered to use them."
"That doesn't explain it."
"Well it's unnatural."
"No it's not."
"Regardless, my church say it's a sin and I'm okay with that."
"Bloody crazy if you ask me."
"Say, would you sign my petition?"
"What's it say?"
"It says that two legged's can't get married."
"What?!  Now wait a minute."

Jor, I think I love you.