My views on objective morality

[Kiekeben]

OK thanks

How is that different from a dictator who says "might equals right"? What if I don't agree with him?

I'd say a dictator is merely another human being, no different from yourself as a human being. He didn't create the universe. He isn't the ultimate supreme being of everything that exists. He didn't, Himself, create moral laws and design how they work and what they are.

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that because God created the moral laws, whatever he decrees is true by definition. Is that it? But if so, do you believe that if God had said that torturing babies for fun is good, it would be good?

[LadyForCamus]

I'd say a dictator is merely another human being, no different from yourself as a human being. He didn't create the universe. He isn't the ultimate supreme being of everything that exists. He didn't, Himself, create moral laws and design how they work and what they are.

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that because God created the moral laws, whatever he decrees is true by definition. Is that it? But if so, do you believe that if God had said that torturing babies for fun is good, it would be good?

And this is where most Christians will say "God would never think that was morally right," which is really just the Christian saying they, themselves, could never find torturing babies morally right. But they must project their beliefs onto God in order to maintain some sense of internal consistency they can be comfortable with.

[God of Mr. Hanky]

Well, Becca, I do like your new clothes :-)

[rexbeccarox]

Well, Becca, I do like your new clothes :-)

Why, thank you

[Kiekeben]

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that because God created the moral laws, whatever he decrees is true by definition. Is that it? But if so, do you believe that if God had said that torturing babies for fun is good, it would be good?

And this is where most Christians will say "God would never think that was morally right," which is really just the Christian saying they, themselves, could never find torturing babies morally right.  But they must project their beliefs onto God in order to maintain some sense of internal consistency they can be comfortable with.

Yes, most say that, but I'm hoping Catholic Lady will be one of the few who realizes that's not a valid response. Just in case she doesn't, however, let me clarify: I'm not suggesting the God she believes in would think it's right; for purposes of this discussion, I'll happily grant that God would never condone baby torture. What I'm asking, however, is what her response would be if God said it was right.

---

I have no idea what it means that something "is immoral" even if everyone thinks it isn't.

How does that have any bearing on reality? Immoral according to who, or what?

How does morality make any sense independent of a point of view? A neutral universe doesn't care what happens.

I see where you're coming from, Rob. From an atheists perspective, believing that anything can be objectively immoral makes 0 sense. Believing in a higher power certainly goes hand in hand with objective morality.

I don't believe moral principles are objective, but that has nothing to do with my atheism. Lots of atheists believe in objective morality. And whether there is a God or not doesn't seem to make any difference to the status of moral principles, as far as I can tell.

[The Grand Nudger]

As usual, god doesn't make a difference.

If skullfucking toddlers is objectively or subjectively right or wrong, I don't care..I won't be doing it.  If it's objectively or subjectively right or wrong because god said so or didn't, I don't care, I wont be doing it.  If I can't get everyone or anyone to agree on any of the above or a combination thereof....... I don't care, I won't be doing it.

No amount of addition or subtraction of a god, with regards to morality, has -any- effect on my moral positions, regardless of their status as objective or subjective.

[Rhondazvous]

I'd say a dictator is merely another human being, no different from yourself as a human being. He didn't create the universe. He isn't the ultimate supreme being of everything that exists. He didn't, Himself, create moral laws and design how they work and what they are.

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that because God created the moral laws, whatever he decrees is true by definition. Is that it? But if so, do you believe that if God had said that torturing babies for fun is good, it would be good?

The difference between a dictator and god is that a dictator is here to tell you what he wants you to do and kick your ass if you don’t. On the other hand, thousands of men throughout history have taken it upon themselves to tell us what god wants us to do because he himself is silent. As a result there has never been a consensus about what god wants. Even now the Catholic Church is toying with the idea that all the past popes have been mistaken about god’s will concerning marriage, divorce, homosexuality, abortion, etc. So how do you know which pope expresses god's ultimate will when every generation before you thought they had I, toot?

The unchanging god has chosen to express his will through the changing opinions of men. As god he can do anything he wants, but why does he want to do the things that create the most confusion?

[Catholic_Lady]

I actually give CL a lot of credit for subjecting herself to this voluntarily without ever resorting to disrespect, pretentiousness, or preaching (and I can't say we have all afforded her the same 100% of the time, myself included).  She is definitely one of the good ones IMO!  Plus, who doesn't just LOVE a good poop joke?  [emoji12]

Thank you, I appreciate this. 

I just got back from work and am skimming through some stuff but gotta jump in the shower soon to get ready for date night. Hope yall have a great weekend!

[LadyForCamus]

As usual, god doesn't make a difference.

If skullfucking toddlers is objectively or subjectively right or wrong, I don't care..I won't be doing it.  If it's objectively or subjectively right or wrong because god said so or didn't, I don't care, I wont be doing it.  If I can't get everyone or anyone to agree on any of the above or a combination thereof....... I don't care, I won't be doing it.

No amount of addition or subtraction of a god, with regards to morality, has -any- effect on my moral positions, regardless of their status as objective or subjective.

Aw, Rhythm, come on! All the cool kids are doing it!

[abaris]

So, from the top of my head.

The OT found it OK to pay for rape and even named the sum, owed to the father, not the victim.

Medieval (christian) law makers thought it to be OK to pay for murder and set up different fees, according to the value of the murder victim in question.

Middle American cultures thought it to be OK to sacrifice people to their gods.

Hell, yeah, looks like objective moral standards to me.