My views on objective morality

[LadyForCamus]

The main thing is that this is what you believe, whether it is true or not.  I of course think shit happens and its no one's fault except the rapist in this case and perhaps the societal milieu in which he (or she .. wouldn't that be great if weren't actually just us guys everytime?) was raised.

Does your belief that there will be long term consequences for the rapist prevent you from doing everything you can humanly do here and now to keep safe the 11 year old girl Rhythm is threatening with rape in his imagination?

My bold. 

Absolutely not.

So why not hold God to the same standard?!

[Kiekeben]

God, by creating humans who rape, regularly violates the free will of those who are raped. I don't see how free will is even a plausible argument for Christians to use.

Having free will doesn't mean we'll accomplish everything we try to do, per se. Someone can kidnap me and I'll fight back as much as I can, but that doesn't mean I won't succeed in being able to escape. This doesn't mean I don't have free will.

You are right about this, CL. But now think about what you said previously, about how someone wouldn't have free will if God prevented them from raping a child. Do you see any contradiction there?

[Catholic_Lady]

I know that you personally understand that rape is horrible, CL.  But making excuses for why God has set up his own creations to have the desire, motivation, opportunity, and ability to rape each other ("he has his reasons") is in a way excusing the act it's self.  What possible reason could there be?  It leads to a dangerous way of thinking.  It leads to a diminished appreciation for human suffering.  

Chinese women who put their new born baby girls in trees to die of exposure told themselves it was okay, because there was a "plan"; that the babies would be reincarnated without any memories of their short, tortured lives.  

Saying "this seems fucked up, but what do I know," is a slippery slope.  How many Germans probably said that to themselves?

To be fair, this is a bit of a straw man. 

What I was saying is that God has His reasons for creating SEX, verses having us reproduce via stork or some other non sexual means. Even though sex can be used wrongly by us humans and thus can cause a lot of harm, I trust that God has seen everything (unlike myself) and that He has seen that the good that comes from sex far outweighs the bad that can come from it.

[The Grand Nudger]

So I guess we just have to put up with a little* rape so that you and your husband can get your rocks off...and maybe make a little mini-CL that you'll teach the same twisted shit to....?

[LadyForCamus]

I know that you personally understand that rape is horrible, CL.  But making excuses for why God has set up his own creations to have the desire, motivation, opportunity, and ability to rape each other ("he has his reasons") is in a way excusing the act it's self.  What possible reason could there be?  It leads to a dangerous way of thinking.  It leads to a diminished appreciation for human suffering.  

Chinese women who put their new born baby girls in trees to die of exposure told themselves it was okay, because there was a "plan"; that the babies would be reincarnated without any memories of their short, tortured lives.  

Saying "this seems fucked up, but what do I know," is a slippery slope.  How many Germans probably said that to themselves?

To be fair, this is a bit of a straw man. 

What I was saying is that God has His reasons for creating SEX, verses having us reproduce via stork or some other non sexual means. Even though sex can be used wrongly by us humans and thus can cause a lot of harm, I trust that God has seen everything (unlike myself) and that He has seen that the good that comes from sex far outweighs the bad that can come from it.

No. You said God has his reasons for the 11 year old girl who now apparently has syphilis thanks to Rhythm.

[abaris]

Well, eternal life is a very fundamental part of Christian belief.

I know it is.

But it's still the escape route when anything looks remotely uncomfortable and they don't really want to reflect on the implications. To be perfectly clear, god being omnipotent could have created the most perfect or perfect environments. And even the putting to the test argument flies out of the window, since god being omniscient knows the answers already before he even asks.

But, as I said, this isn't really important for this thread.

[God of Mr. Hanky]

I don't see how that answers my question. Did God create humans who are able to remove the free will of others or not? If so, he, even if by extension, regularly removes free will.

Sorry, I didn't realize it was a question. 

Yes, when 2 people have sex God does not magically stop nature from happening and from a person being conceived and then born, as they otherwise would have. Even if He knows that person will grow up to do bad things, like take away another person's rights, He does not intervene. I word it like that is to show that I don't see God as being a wizard with a magic wand who "creates" people just like that. He does not micromanage our world. He allows nature to take its course, as I have explained. 

Yes, God gave everyone free will. Some people choose to use their free will to hinder another person's free will at a particular time. Do I blame God for that, since He allows nature to take its course and thus allowed a person to be born, knowing that person would do something awful? No, I don't. I think He gave us brains and an inherent understanding of good and evil. I think we are all fully and solely responsible for our own actions. I guess I don't see it the same way as you... that God took away someone's free will because He created someone who did.

I can't answer why God thought it would be ultimately better to let nature take its coarse. But I'm ok with that. I'm not God.

God is not a wizard with a magic wand who "creates" people like that, even though he has all that power and more. He does not micromanage our world, he allows nature to take its course, which is a decision which would make anyone with the power to do otherwise derelict of the responsibilities which go with power. Your god's hands are not, and can never be clean when he allows evil things to happen when he is capable of changing the course of events. There are no "mysterious ways", there are only the excuses which his believers keep on making in order to hold on to the delusion that they remain faithful to the god of their delusions, which were implanted into their minds through childhood indoctrination.

The question is how much longer will you, CL, continue to make such excuses for your deity, knowing what you do on how childhood indoctrination has warped your mind? Your church does absolutely nothing to mitigate evil, and in fact it has been more than responsible for some horrible atrocities of its own. Your god stood by while thousands of Catholic children and women were raped by Catholic priests, and your church authorities still resist the mitigation of these crimes, because they are themselves the perpetrators! The Vatican supported the mandated pubiotomy operation against all Irish Catholic women giving birth in that country, for more than a century after other countries outlawed it. It was unimaginably painful, and caused permanent paralysis in many women. Your church enslaved Irish women for life in the Magdalene laundries, just for talking to boys when they were fourteen - they went in there, never to see their families again, forgotten. This slave industry existed to raise money for the futher empowerment of your church, yes, it's that one which is directed from the Vatican. The girls who were forced to work there were buried in mass graves! This is the god who you follow and support, who stands by and encourages this of evil people within the organization which receives your tithe money, as if they were acting on his own orders. Well, I don't think a god who encourages this sort of behavior through his failure of positive intercession is one who deserves the respect, much less the support of a decent person such as you. If you really are the decent person which you appear to be. The more you make excuses for that layabout creep, the more I doubt you really have much decency still in you.

[Whateverist]

This seems like the thing I'm always hearing from theists who are horrified about the logical implications of what I must believe as an atheist.

Whatever anyone else may think it means that God does or allows horrible acts, should just ask Cathy what she thinks instead of building 'proofs' of what her beliefs must be and what they signify.

[Catholic_Lady]

My bold. 

Absolutely not.

So why not hold God to the same standard?!  

As I said, I don't know why God allows nature to take its course. I don't know why He doesn't intervene. But I'm okay with not knowing, because I'm not God and it makes no sense that a human would have all the same wisdom and knowledge as a being who created the universe and who can see everything in it - past present and future.

[Catholic_Lady]

To be fair, this is a bit of a straw man. 

What I was saying is that God has His reasons for creating SEX, verses having us reproduce via stork or some other non sexual means. Even though sex can be used wrongly by us humans and thus can cause a lot of harm, I trust that God has seen everything (unlike myself) and that He has seen that the good that comes from sex far outweighs the bad that can come from it.

No.  You said God has his reasons for the 11 year old girl who now apparently has syphilis thanks to Rhythm.  

Where did I say that?