My views on objective morality

[LadyForCamus]

Excusing rape doesn't have to involve, nor have I ever claimed that it did involve, claiming that rape is okay.  Only that it is excusable, or that complicity in it is excusable.  

It's an objectively bad thing™ and people who are engaged in it or complicit to it are bad people™....I'm wholly against it and them...except when.. [fill in this shitty blank with nonsense of your own choosing]. Some fun examples include;

"my god is involved"
"it's part of a plan"
"it benefits us, somehow, to have it included"

This, exactly.

[Catholic_Lady]

I'm flabbergasted.  Are we really holding people accountable for worshiping a god we don't believe in on account of how we interpret the accounts of this nonexistent god?  So we're basically telling them what they believe, is that it?  You'd think we have enough experience of getting that from halfwit apologists not to embrace the very same tactics ourselves

No one is telling her what she believes.  She has told us she believes/trusts that god has his reasons.  My opinion is that she is a good person and knows better than to think there are any "good reasons" for allowing rape to happen, and therefore she is making an excuse for the God she worships.  One he in no way deserves.  I am allowed to express this opinion, and it doesn't change the fact that I like CL, and think she is a good person.  

Right. Except for the people telling me I'm defending/condoning/excusing rape.

[Catholic_Lady]

Excusing rape doesn't have to involve, nor have I ever claimed that it did involve, claiming that rape is okay.  Only that it is excusable, or that complicity in it is excusable.  

It's an objectively bad thing™ and people who are engaged in it or complicit to it are bad people™....I'm wholly against it and them...except when.. [fill in this shitty blank with nonsense of your own choosing].  Some fun examples include;

"my god is involved"
"it's part of a plan"
"it benefits us, somehow, to have it included"

This, exactly.  

No. He's saying I'm excusing rape. Which I am not. So no, not "exactly this" at all.

[Catholic_Lady]

I believe God allows nature to take its course. He does not micromanage the world.

Why? I do not know. I am not God, and I'm ok with that.

You have been saying that a lot, CL.

Yep. That's my answer to a question I've been asked repeatedly in the same thread. Take it or leave it.

[God of Mr. Hanky]

No one is telling her what she believes.  She has told us she believes/trusts that god has his reasons.  My opinion is that she is a good person and knows better than to think there are any "good reasons" for allowing rape to happen, and therefore she is making an excuse for the God she worships.  One he in no way deserves.  I am allowed to express this opinion, and it doesn't change the fact that I like CL, and think she is a good person.  

Right. Except for the people telling me I'm defending/condoning/excusing rape.

CL, I know you're a good person, and this is why you need to deal with these questions.

1. Do you worship the god which allows rape to happen and go unpunished, or don't you?

You keep on making that excuse that God shouldn't be expected to "micromanage the world", but he does in fact have all that power, and in fact the doctrine you follow is that he is everywhere in it, and able to change anything with just a word. Now if I were in that alley where somebody was raped, and I did absolutely nothing, then I could be held as an accessory to that crime! Therefore, CL, I must ask you,

2. why in sacred fuck do you think your god, with all his power, should be held to a lesser degree of responsibility than an ordinary human? Because this is, no buts, exactly what you are doing.

[LadyForCamus]

All we're doing is kicking around The Problem of Evil, possibly the most-discussed religious philosophy issue. Why, I've never quite figured out.

With respect to those who have been harmed, I don't see it (presuming that this being called "God" exists) as necessarily so that God must intervene in the world in order to be called all-powerful or good. It's a projection of our own desires onto this Being, which is the same mistake we constantly point out to the theists, when they do it in the other direction.

Even if we could say that the only way this Being could be Good/Omniscient/Omnipotent at the same time, I don't see how it follows that He must intevene in this world on that level. I'm sorry, I just don't.

It's why I am a Humanist. I think these issues are ours to fix/mitigate. Perhaps "God" is also a Humanist, in that respect. I don't know... but I DO know that it's not C_L's fault that the Deity is no longer an interventionist.

But look, the subject of this thread was objective morality. The assertion being that certain acts are objectively good or objectively bad, and the insinuation being (though not in all cases, but in this case, yes) that these morals are handed down from God. I don't think we are are being unreasonable in questioning CL's logic here, regardless of whether or not we actually believe in this God. And those of us who don't believe morality is objective would still expect any all-powerful, all-good creator to protect and care for his creations with the same love and empathy that any emotionally healthy human would.

Let me be clear. CL - I think you are a good person. I do not think that you condone rape. I actually like you very much.

However, when you make special exceptions in your mind for God; exceptions you would NEVER make for any person who lives on earth; for acts that under NO OTHER circumstance you'd ever think it was okay not to intervene...this is like taking a mental/emotional fire-escape out of the hot flames of rational thought. And it can be very quickly misinterpreted.

On a personal note, rape is a touchy subject for me, and maybe I reacted angrily. Maybe I projected onto you when you didn't deserve it. For that, I'm sorry. I do like you very much. I just don't understand why you guys give this asshole so many free passes. I'm so glad he doesn't actually exist...

P.s. I've had a few beers so if none of this makes sense feel free to ignore it, and I'll have another go at it tomorrow.

[LadyForCamus]

This, exactly.  

No. He's saying I'm excusing rape. Which I am not. So no, not "exactly this" at all.

"Or that complicity in it is excusable." There is a difference here.

[Catholic_Lady]

Right. Except for the people telling me I'm defending/condoning/excusing rape.

CL, I know you're a good person, but do you worship the god which allows rape to happen and go unpunished, or don't you?

You keep on making that excuse that God shouldn't be expected to "micromanage the world", but he does in fact have all that power, and in fact the doctrine you follow is that he is everywhere in it, and able to change anything with just a word. Now if I were in that alley where somebody was raped, and I did absolutely nothing, then I could be held as an accessory to that crime! Therefore, CL, I must ask you, and I think you really need to answer this: why in sacred fuck do you think your god, with all his power, should be held to a lesser degree of responsibility than an ordinary human? Because this is, no buts, exactly what you are doing.

I'm gonna say this one more time, and this goes to everyone.  

I believe God allows nature to take its course. I believe He allows people to have free will. He let's things happen as they would, naturally. 

He does not resort to divine intervention to micromanage the world.  

From that, there are good and bad consequences. One of the bad consequences is rape. However, I trust God to know that the good consequences of His decision to give us free will and to not be a micromanager, outweigh the bad consequences of it. Im not saying the bad consequences aren't bad. I'm not saying rape, specifically, has good consequences. I'm saying I trust that the good consequences in general, of giving us free will, in general... of not resorting to divine intervention, of letting nature take its course, etc, etc, outweigh the bad.  

What are the "good consequences?" That I do not know. I'm just a little human, living in a tiny section of the universe, for a tiny amount of time. I'm not God. I can't see everything.   

Also, I believe that if God did become human like us He would stop a rape if it came to it. After all, He did stop the stoning of an adulteress. But He is not human right now. And stopping bad things from happening would require divine intervention, taking away free will, micromanaging. Which are all things that He, for whatever reason that we can't see right now, has deemed would do more harm than good in the grand scheme of things. (Also, I never said rape goes unpunished so I'm not sure where that straw came from.)    

So, that's it. That's all there is to it. You may not like it, but at this point I honestly don't give a fuck. It's your decision whether you choose to accept my differences and still be cool with me, as I accept yours, or not. But there is nothing else I can say on the subject that hasn't already been said. So take it or leave it.

[God of Mr. Hanky]

CL, I know you're a good person, but do you worship the god which allows rape to happen and go unpunished, or don't you?

You keep on making that excuse that God shouldn't be expected to "micromanage the world", but he does in fact have all that power, and in fact the doctrine you follow is that he is everywhere in it, and able to change anything with just a word. Now if I were in that alley where somebody was raped, and I did absolutely nothing, then I could be held as an accessory to that crime! Therefore, CL, I must ask you, and I think you really need to answer this: why in sacred fuck do you think your god, with all his power, should be held to a lesser degree of responsibility than an ordinary human? Because this is, no buts, exactly what you are doing.

I'm gonna say this one more time, and this goes to everyone.  

I believe God allows nature to take its course. I believe He allows people to have free will. He let's things happen as they would, naturally. 

He does not resort to divine intervention to micromanage the world.  

From that, there are good and bad consequences. One of the bad consequences is rape. However, I trust God to know that the good consequences of His decision to give us free will and to not be a micromanager, outweigh the bad consequences of it. Im not saying the bad consequences aren't bad. I'm not saying rape, specifically, has good consequences. I'm saying I trust that the good consequences in general, of giving us free will, in general... of not resorting to divine intervention, of letting nature take its course, etc, etc, outweigh the bad.  

What are the "good consequences?" That I do not know. I'm just a little human, living in a tiny section of the universe, for a tiny amount of time. I'm not God. I can't see everything.   

Also, I believe that if God did become human like us He would stop a rape if it came to it. After all, He did stop the stoning of an adulteress. But He is not human right now. And stopping bad things from happening would require divine intervention, taking away free will, micromanaging. Which are all things that He, for whatever reason that we can't see right now, has deemed would do more harm than good in the grand scheme of things. (Also, I never said rape goes unpunished so I'm not sure where that straw came from.)    

So, that's it. That's all there is to it. You may not like it, but at this point I honestly don't give a fuck. It's your decision whether you choose to accept my differences and still be cool with me, as I accept yours, or not. But there is nothing else I can say on the subject that hasn't already been said. So take it or leave it.

In that case I can only conclude that you are not dealing with these questions honestly, or at very least not thoughtfully. The special pleading you make for such a horrible monster of a god really does nothing good for your humanity.

[LadyForCamus]

CL, I know you're a good person, but do you worship the god which allows rape to happen and go unpunished, or don't you?

You keep on making that excuse that God shouldn't be expected to "micromanage the world", but he does in fact have all that power, and in fact the doctrine you follow is that he is everywhere in it, and able to change anything with just a word. Now if I were in that alley where somebody was raped, and I did absolutely nothing, then I could be held as an accessory to that crime! Therefore, CL, I must ask you, and I think you really need to answer this: why in sacred fuck do you think your god, with all his power, should be held to a lesser degree of responsibility than an ordinary human? Because this is, no buts, exactly what you are doing.

I'm gonna say this one more time, and this goes to everyone.  

I believe God allows nature to take its course. I believe He allows people to have free will. He let's things happen as they would, naturally. 

He does not resort to divine intervention to micromanage the world.  

From that, there are good and bad consequences. One of the bad consequences is rape. However, I trust God to know that the good consequences of His decision to give us free will and to not be a micromanager, outweigh the bad consequences of it. Im not saying the bad consequences aren't bad. I'm not saying rape, specifically, has good consequences. I'm saying I trust that the good consequences in general, of giving us free will, in general... of not resorting to divine intervention, of letting nature take its course, etc, etc, outweigh the bad.  

What are the "good consequences?" That I do not know. I'm just a little human, living in a tiny section of the universe, for a tiny amount of time. I'm not God. I can't see everything.   

Also, I believe that if God did become human like us He would stop a rape if it came to it. After all, He did stop the stoning of an adulteress. But He is not human right now. And stopping bad things from happening would require divine intervention, taking away free will, micromanaging. Which are all things that He, for whatever reason that we can't see right now, has deemed would do more harm than good in the grand scheme of things. (Also, I never said rape goes unpunished so I'm not sure where that straw came from.)    

So, that's it. That's all there is to it. You may not like it, but at this point I honestly don't give a fuck. It's your decision whether you choose to accept my differences and still be cool with me, as I accept yours, or not. But there is nothing else I can say on the subject that hasn't already been said. So take it or leave it.

Well, it's still a form of special pleading and it's still a logical fallacy. If you are okay with it, then that is your decision. Hopefully no one here will stop being cool with you over a philosophical disagreement, because that would just be silly.