The Problem with Christians

[AJW333]

In my understanding, free will without the possibility of carrying out the will is no free will at all.

Then, you can't plausibly say we have free will since there are countless ways in which one will find that the universe prohibits the expression of free will.

The universe is a bunch of planets, stars, suns moons etc. How are these responsible for influencing the decisions of man?

God could have made rape as impossible as breathing ocean water.

But he didn't. He wants man to exercise his free will and to choose not to rape.

The only other explanation is that God was not capable of achieving this, and that there are rules greater than God (which necessarily negates the concept of God as Christians imagine him).

I have the power to crush the spider in my kitchen. Just because I choose to pick it up and take it outside, that in no way diminishes my capacity or change who I am.

---

What is the point of prayer? That's like asking, "what's the point of conversation? Why bother talking to people?

People actually talk back, you know. Hearing voices in your head doesn't exactly qualify as conversation.

Conversing is simply an interchange of thoughts. Don't they say that the majority of communication is non-verbal?

---

Check my post just previous to this one. By its very nature, the supernatural defies scientific explanation. It's like saying, "I demand you use this system to prove something that operates outside this system." How do we do that?

By examining and eliminating every other possibility first. As you have a science degree, you already know that. But that isn't even what I wrote. You're the one claiming to have evidence. Present it for examination, or face the sharp end of Hitchens' Razor.

At the risk of endlessly repeating myself , my wife and sister in law had the same dream about the same person, in the same location, at the same time having a heart attack which happened a week later. The chance of this being due to random chance is astronomically low. I've no idea what value you could put on it but a billion to one against this being random seems reasonable to me.

Given that what happened here was a precise description of a future event, I would say that it qualifies as supernatural. The fact that you don't, is up to you.

---

So how did DNA first form?

If you want a scientific answer to this, then you should first provide a scientific explanation to how your god formed.

You are obfuscating. I'll answer your question when you answer mine.

---

If the supernatural operates outside the laws of science, how can I prove it with science?

It doesn't operate at all, outside of hearsay and legend. And I asked you another question, which you never answered. Even if I gave you the possibility of the supernatural existing, why is the cause supposed to be your particular brand of god and not some other as of yet unexplained phenomena?

The scripture regularly predicts events that come true. As I look at the world today, it is exactly as the Bible predicted. I think the scripture has credibility because it reliably tells us the future. No other religion even comes close when it comes to accurate prophecy.

[Pat Mustard]

The fact that you believe life was created from dust means you are clearly deranged.

When the earth was formed, it would have consisted simply of dirt, rocks and water. What else was there to create?

From wikipedia, elements which make up the earth:
Number Name Symbol ppm (μg/g) ppb (atoms)
8 oxygen . O 297000 482,000,000
12 magnesium. Mg 154000 164,000,000
14 silicon. Si 161000 150,000,000
26 iron. Fe 319000 148,000,000
13 aluminum. Al 15900 15,300,000
20 calcium . Ca 17100 11,100,000
28 nickel . Ni 18220 8,010,000
1 hydrogen . H 260 6,700,000
16 sulfur . S 6350 5,150,000
24 chromium. Cr 4700 2,300,000
11 sodium . Na 1800 2,000,000
6 carbon . C 730 1,600,000
15 phosphorus. P 1210 1,020,000
25 manganese . Mn 1700 800,000
22 titanium . Ti 810 440,000
27 cobalt . Co 880 390,000
19 potassium . K 160 110,000
17 chlorine . Cl 76 56,000
23 vanadium . V 105 53,600
7 nitrogen . N 25 46,000
29 copper . Cu 60 25,000
30 zinc. Zn. 40 16,000
9 fluorine. F 10 14,000
21 scandium. Sc 11 6,300
3 lithium . Li 1.10 4,100
38 strontium . Sr 13 3,900
32 germanium. Ge 7.00 2,500
40 zirconium . Zr 7.10 2,000
31 gallium . Ga 3.00 1,000
34 selenium. Se 2.70 890
56 barium . Ba 4.50 850
39 yttrium . Y 2.90 850
33 arsenic . As 1.70 590
5 boron . B 0.20 480
42 molybdenum . Mo 1.70 460
44 ruthenium . Ru 1.30 330
78 platinum . Pt 1.90 250
46 palladium. Pd 1.00 240
58 cerium. Ce 1.13 210
60 neodymium . Nd 0.84 150
4 beryllium . Be 0.05 140
41 niobium . Nb 0.44 120
76 osmium . Os 0.90 120
77 iridium . Ir 0.90 120
37 rubidium . Rb 0.40 120
35 bromine. Br 0.30 97
57 lanthanum . La 0.44 82
66 dysprosium . Dy 0.46 74
64 gadolinium . Gd 0.37 61
52 tellurium . Te 0.30 61
45 rhodium . Rh 0.24 61
50 tin . Sn 0.25 55
62 samarium . Sm 0.27 47
68 erbium . Er 0.30 47
70 ytterbium . Yb 0.30 45
59 praseodymium Pr 0.17 31
82 lead . Pb 0.23 29
72 hafnium . Hf 0.19 28
74 tungsten . W 0.17 24
79 gold . Au 0.16 21
48 cadmium . Cd 0.08 18
63 europium . Eu 0.10 17
67 holmium. Ho 0.10 16
47 silver . Ag 0.05 12
65 terbium . Tb 0.07 11
51 antimony . Sb 0.05 11
75 rhenium . Re 0.08 10
53 iodine . I 0.05 10
69 thulium. Tm 0.05 7
55 cesium . Cs 0.04 7
71 lutetium . Lu 0.05 7
90 thorium . Th 0.06 6
73 tantalum . Ta 0.03 4
80 mercury . Hg 0.02 3
92 uranium . U 0.02 2
49 indium . In 0.01 2
81 thallium . Tl 0.01 2
83 bismuth. Bi 0.01 1

But as a man of science youd know this, right ajw?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abundanc...l_elements

[AJW333]

If the supernatural operates outside the laws of science, how can I prove it with science?

I'll make it easy for you. If what you consider supernatural operates outside the laws of science, does it affect anything within the laws of science in any way? Start there.

I'm not sure I understand the question.

---

When the earth was formed, it would have consisted simply of dirt, rocks and water. What else was there to create life with?

This is so fractally incorrect, that it is not even wrong.

Please stop getting your info from creationist websites, they are making you look way dumber than you probably are (I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you are just being misled by dishonest hucksters).

 So what did the earth look like 4.5 billion years ago?

---

When the earth was formed, it would have consisted simply of dirt, rocks and water. What else was there to create?

From wikipedia, elements which make up the earth:
Number Name Symbol ppm (μg/g) ppb (atoms)
8 oxygen .               O 297000 482,000,000
12 magnesium.     Mg 154000 164,000,000
14 silicon.               Si 161000 150,000,000
26 iron.                   Fe 319000 148,000,000
13 aluminum.             Al 15900 15,300,000
20 calcium .               Ca 17100 11,100,000
28 nickel .               Ni 18220 8,010,000
1 hydrogen .       H 260 6,700,000
16 sulfur .               S 6350 5,150,000
24 chromium.         Cr 4700 2,300,000
11 sodium .               Na 1800 2,000,000
6 carbon .               C 730 1,600,000
15 phosphorus.         P 1210 1,020,000
25 manganese .      Mn 1700 800,000
22 titanium .              Ti 810 440,000
27 cobalt .              Co 880 390,000
19 potassium .      K 160 110,000
17 chlorine .              Cl 76 56,000
23 vanadium .       V 105 53,600
7 nitrogen .               N 25 46,000
29 copper .               Cu 60 25,000
30 zinc.                 Zn.  40 16,000
9 fluorine.             F 10 14,000
21 scandium.           Sc 11 6,300
3 lithium .               Li 1.10 4,100
38 strontium .       Sr 13 3,900
32 germanium.       Ge 7.00 2,500
40 zirconium .       Zr 7.10 2,000
31 gallium .               Ga 3.00 1,000
34 selenium.           Se 2.70 890
56 barium .               Ba 4.50 850
39 yttrium .               Y 2.90 850
33 arsenic .               As 1.70 590
5 boron .               B 0.20 480
42 molybdenum .       Mo 1.70 460
44 ruthenium .       Ru 1.30 330
78 platinum .               Pt 1.90 250
46 palladium.       Pd 1.00 240
58 cerium.           Ce 1.13 210
60 neodymium .        Nd 0.84 150
4 beryllium .        Be 0.05 140
41 niobium .                Nb 0.44 120
76 osmium .                Os 0.90 120
77 iridium .                Ir 0.90 120
37 rubidium .       Rb 0.40 120
35 bromine.             Br 0.30 97
57 lanthanum .       La 0.44 82
66 dysprosium .       Dy 0.46 74
64 gadolinium .       Gd 0.37 61
52 tellurium .               Te 0.30 61
45 rhodium .               Rh 0.24 61
50 tin .                       Sn 0.25 55
62 samarium .      Sm 0.27 47
68 erbium .               Er 0.30 47
70 ytterbium .       Yb 0.30 45
59 praseodymium Pr 0.17 31
82 lead .                       Pb 0.23 29
72 hafnium .               Hf 0.19 28
74 tungsten .               W 0.17 24
79 gold .                       Au 0.16 21
48 cadmium .      Cd 0.08 18
63 europium .      Eu 0.10 17
67 holmium.         Ho 0.10 16
47 silver .               Ag 0.05 12
65 terbium .               Tb 0.07 11
51 antimony .       Sb 0.05 11
75 rhenium .               Re 0.08 10
53 iodine .               I 0.05 10
69 thulium.           Tm 0.05 7
55 cesium .               Cs 0.04 7
71 lutetium .               Lu 0.05 7
90 thorium .               Th 0.06 6
73 tantalum .       Ta 0.03 4
80 mercury .               Hg 0.02 3
92 uranium .               U 0.02 2
49 indium .               In 0.01 2
81 thallium .               Tl 0.01 2
83 bismuth.         Bi 0.01 1

But as a man of science youd know this, right ajw?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abundanc...l_elements

I'm quite familiar with the periodic table. When I use the world 'dirt" it goes without saying that it would include any and all possible mineral/element combinations.

---

I'll make it easy for you. If what you consider supernatural operates outside the laws of science, does it affect anything within the laws of science in any way? Start there.

Just in case AJW333's intellect does not allow him to understand what you are alluding to, I'll spell it out a bit for him.

If you are claiming that your supernatural god is able to, and does interact with the natural laws of science (miracles, appearing to various people, communicating with people, etc), then those claims can be tested scientifically.

In other words, if your god answers your prayers, or communicates with you,  then you are claiming to be a "god detector", and that is a testable claim.

How would you test my claims that God told me something? For instance, I remember going to the mall and as I got out of the car, out of the blue I had a strong impression that I would run into a particular person from Church and that she would be wearing dark blue pants and a pink top. I walked into the place and there she was, as described. (btw I hadn't seen this woman for some time).

Coincidence or is there some paranormal, or supernatural communication here? What test do we apply here?

[abaris]

The scripture regularly predicts events that come true. As I look at the world today, it is exactly as the Bible predicted. I think the scripture has credibility because it reliably tells us the future. No other religion even comes close when it comes to accurate prophecy.

And so does Nostradamus if you bend and shape the letters sufficiently. I've yet to see any supposed prophecy not being open to at least a dozen interpretations. This isn't like in the year XXXX some clear cut event will come to pass, but some obsucre verses that have been translated, edited and retranslated all over the world for at least 2000 years by now.

We've had an esteemed member calling himself the professor, who wasted his life away by interpreting the end of days coming last september. Going by bible verses, he bent to suit his particular brand of makebelief.

[Pat Mustard]

They ignore logic.  Not only that, they ignore it to the detriment of reason so that they can create these silly counter arguments that are not even logical.  

Oh, forgive me, their arguments are logical to them and their perpetually damaging delusion.

Christians only create, as they did their imaginary friend since the beginning of time, apologetics because they know they are on the loosing end, and they think they can somehow cling to something meaningful if more idiots follow their brand of idiocy.

Interesting that no one brought up the fact that Christians follow the dogma of Christ. No matter your belief system, the fact is: that true followers of Christ are just that; It has little to do with unknowns, mysteries or scientific facts. Its our way of life! 

So, you can all go on and on about "proof" all you want... but it does nothing to refute the dogma, or Word of Christ, or His [true] followers.

No... the problem is with atheists, or anti-theists who revel in tearing down any manner of the creationism ideology. Instead of looking for reasons and logic for a creator, there is always vicious rebelling against any inkling of it. Whether it be in: miracles, supernatural events, or witnessing. You never even consider that the creator wants it the way it is purposely.

Our lives as Christians are based on Faith, and the Words of Jesus Christ. That is ALL WE NEED! The only limits we have are our physical bodies.... and those we inflict on ourselves through sin and closed-mindedness. And this is accepted as Christians, to be all by design. 

Omni-whatever.... We are the masters of our own destiny! Whether He knows the results or not, God is still interactive in our lives and gives us every opportunity to act as Jesus did: To Love unconditionally... even our enemies. 

Jesus  said, "The kingdom is within."  Seek & you will find." Ask and the door will be open to you." So, the answer is not in a test tube, a hole in the ground, or some far reaches of the universe.... a religion or scientist. 

The Problem with Christians? Its the same answer for everyone.....

Its under our noses the whole time. But we continually refuse to acknowledge it. That is why we have Jesus! To constantly remind us that "Love" is the answer. The only true answer to solve all the problems and mysteries of this world.

What the flying fuck are you on about?

[The Grand Nudger]

All the "love/jesus" in the world wont fill an empty stomach, cloth a bare ass, or put a roof between the top of your head and the rain.  The answer to our problems, when there even -is- an answer, is work.  When all the work is done...then perhaps, it might be okay to peddle some "jesus" off on the gullible. For all I care, people can go on -hating- each other unto infinity, so long as the work gets done. Prattle on about love being a solution with a full belly and sweater, in the comfort of your home.

[Pat Mustard]

I'll make it easy for you. If what you consider supernatural operates outside the laws of science, does it affect anything within the laws of science in any way? Start there.

I'm not sure I understand the question.

---

This is so fractally incorrect, that it is not even wrong.

Please stop getting your info from creationist websites, they are making you look way dumber than you probably are (I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you are just being misled by dishonest hucksters).

 So what did the earth look like 4.5 billion years ago?

---

From wikipedia, elements which make up the earth:
Number Name Symbol ppm (μg/g) ppb (atoms)
8 oxygen .               O 297000 482,000,000
12 magnesium.     Mg 154000 164,000,000
14 silicon.               Si 161000 150,000,000
26 iron.                   Fe 319000 148,000,000
13 aluminum.             Al 15900 15,300,000
20 calcium .               Ca 17100 11,100,000
28 nickel .               Ni 18220 8,010,000
1 hydrogen .       H 260 6,700,000
16 sulfur .               S 6350 5,150,000
24 chromium.         Cr 4700 2,300,000
11 sodium .               Na 1800 2,000,000
6 carbon .               C 730 1,600,000
15 phosphorus.         P 1210 1,020,000
25 manganese .      Mn 1700 800,000
22 titanium .              Ti 810 440,000
27 cobalt .              Co 880 390,000
19 potassium .      K 160 110,000
17 chlorine .              Cl 76 56,000
23 vanadium .       V 105 53,600
7 nitrogen .               N 25 46,000
29 copper .               Cu 60 25,000
30 zinc.                 Zn.  40 16,000
9 fluorine.             F 10 14,000
21 scandium.           Sc 11 6,300
3 lithium .               Li 1.10 4,100
38 strontium .       Sr 13 3,900
32 germanium.       Ge 7.00 2,500
40 zirconium .       Zr 7.10 2,000
31 gallium .               Ga 3.00 1,000
34 selenium.           Se 2.70 890
56 barium .               Ba 4.50 850
39 yttrium .               Y 2.90 850
33 arsenic .               As 1.70 590
5 boron .               B 0.20 480
42 molybdenum .       Mo 1.70 460
44 ruthenium .       Ru 1.30 330
78 platinum .               Pt 1.90 250
46 palladium.       Pd 1.00 240
58 cerium.           Ce 1.13 210
60 neodymium .        Nd 0.84 150
4 beryllium .        Be 0.05 140
41 niobium .                Nb 0.44 120
76 osmium .                Os 0.90 120
77 iridium .                Ir 0.90 120
37 rubidium .       Rb 0.40 120
35 bromine.             Br 0.30 97
57 lanthanum .       La 0.44 82
66 dysprosium .       Dy 0.46 74
64 gadolinium .       Gd 0.37 61
52 tellurium .               Te 0.30 61
45 rhodium .               Rh 0.24 61
50 tin .                       Sn 0.25 55
62 samarium .      Sm 0.27 47
68 erbium .               Er 0.30 47
70 ytterbium .       Yb 0.30 45
59 praseodymium Pr 0.17 31
82 lead .                       Pb 0.23 29
72 hafnium .               Hf 0.19 28
74 tungsten .               W 0.17 24
79 gold .                       Au 0.16 21
48 cadmium .      Cd 0.08 18
63 europium .      Eu 0.10 17
67 holmium.         Ho 0.10 16
47 silver .               Ag 0.05 12
65 terbium .               Tb 0.07 11
51 antimony .       Sb 0.05 11
75 rhenium .               Re 0.08 10
53 iodine .               I 0.05 10
69 thulium.           Tm 0.05 7
55 cesium .               Cs 0.04 7
71 lutetium .               Lu 0.05 7
90 thorium .               Th 0.06 6
73 tantalum .       Ta 0.03 4
80 mercury .               Hg 0.02 3
92 uranium .               U 0.02 2
49 indium .               In 0.01 2
81 thallium .               Tl 0.01 2
83 bismuth.         Bi 0.01 1

But as a man of science youd know this, right ajw?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abundanc...l_elements

I'm quite familiar with the periodic table. When I use the world 'dirt" it goes without saying that it would include any and all possible mineral/element combinations.

---

Just in case AJW333's intellect does not allow him to understand what you are alluding to, I'll spell it out a bit for him.

If you are claiming that your supernatural god is able to, and does interact with the natural laws of science (miracles, appearing to various people, communicating with people, etc), then those claims can be tested scientifically.

In other words, if your god answers your prayers, or communicates with you,  then you are claiming to be a "god detector", and that is a testable claim.

How would you test my claims that God told me something? For instance, I remember going to the mall and as I got out of the car, out of the blue I had a strong impression that I would run into a particular person from Church and that she would be wearing dark blue pants and a pink top. I walked into the place and there she was, as described. (btw I hadn't seen this woman for some time).

Coincidence or is there some paranormal, or supernatural communication here? What test do we apply here?

Says the idiot who thinks a passage in the bible about the c 500 bce formation of the kingdom of Judah actually refers to the 1948 creation of the Racist Theocracy of Israel. Face it ajw your bullshit doesn't fly here, we've been innoculated to it by reality.

Oh and on your "degree" post the certificate or it doesn't exist, because you don't understand scientific concepts you could teach to a toddler.

[God of Mr. Hanky]

I'm quite familiar with the periodic table. When I use the world 'dirt" it goes without saying that it would include any and all possible mineral/element combinations.

You still haven't specified your "science degree", you lying fuctard asshole!

Administrator Notice
Fixed quote formatting. You're welcome -- Stimbo

[vorlon13]

All the "love/jesus" in the world wont fill an empty stomach, cloth a bare ass, or put a roof between the top of your head and the rain.  The answer to our problems, when there even -is- an answer, is work.  When all the work is done...then perhaps, it might be okay to peddle some "jesus" off on the gullible.  For all I care, people can go on -hating- each other unto infinity, so long as the work gets done.  Prattle on about love being a solution with a full belly and sweater, in the comfort of your home.

The "love of Jesus" is surprisingly ineffective in cases of poisonous snake bites and poisonings.

Although I certainly wouldn't discourage  believers from attempting demonstrations otherwise.

[ronedee]

All the "love/jesus" in the world wont fill an empty stomach, cloth a bare ass, or put a roof between the top of your head and the rain.  The answer to our problems, when there even -is- an answer, is work.  When all the work is done...then perhaps, it might be okay to peddle some "jesus" off on the gullible.  For all I care, people can go on -hating- each other unto infinity, so long as the work gets done.  Prattle on about love being a solution with a full belly and sweater, in the comfort of your home.

The "love of Jesus" is surprisingly ineffective in cases of poisonous snake bites and poisonings.

Although I certainly wouldn't discourage  believers from attempting demonstrations otherwise.

 

The person w/o Love walks past the snake bitten. No. w/o Love there would be no life, or reason to live. None.