Why war happens in our species........

[Brian37]

Ok, before anyone comments, please don't respond with "it's complicated", yes our species is complicated. But the core reason is not complicated, we simply as humans concoct elaborate schemes and call theme things like religion, political parties, and economic views. Yes those things do get complicated, but the goal as to why we invent those things isn't. We do that to get at resources and to create social order so we can have a sense of control over our environment, even when it comes at the expense to harming others.

Shakespeare saw the folly of human conceit in MacBeth Act 5 scene 5 "flurry of activity signifying nothing". Damn good guess even with not having the modern scientific knowledge of knowing how finite we are in cosmic time. Sagan however did. 

War happens for many reasons, but the goal is the same, control over our environments. Ideas are the excuses we make and those excuses do get complicated. It isn't that you can get rid of disagreements or differences, but we can work to a less violent world and make diplomacy more of a priority the more humans accept this.

[downbeatplumb]

I am of the opinion that conflict shaped our species. Can you think of a stronger spur to mental evolution than a species being its own hunter and prey?

[Brian37]

I am of the opinion that conflict shaped our species. Can you think of a stronger spur to mental evolution than a species being its own hunter and prey?

Unfortunately evolution does not care who wins when it comes to ideas, the problem with our species is we are stuck on ideas. No it isn't that some ideas are better than others, just that our species didn't come with a collective pragmatic side that fostered settling disputes with neutral controls. We do a better job in the west on that sure, but we only got that way slowly overriding our evolutionary tribalism.

All life competes for resources unfortunately. BUT the good thing is WHEN we want to as a species, we can manage our differences to a more civil degree, but the problem is, can we?

[vorlon13]

So, how do we get the ones who can do this sort of thing to get all enlightened all of a sudden without killing (pick one) most of them, all of them, all of them and everyone that agrees with them but wouldn't do that sort of thing unbidden ???

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Ok, before anyone comments, please don't respond with "it's complicated", yes our species is complicated. But the core reason is not complicated, we simply as humans concoct elaborate schemes and call theme things like religion, political parties, and economic views. Yes those things do get complicated, but the goal as to why we invent those things isn't. We do that to get at resources and to create social order so we can have a sense of control over our environment, even when it comes at the expense to harming others.

Shakespeare saw the folly of human conceit in MacBeth Act 5 scene 5 "flurry of activity signifying nothing". Damn good guess even with not having the modern scientific knowledge of knowing how finite we are in cosmic time. Sagan however did. 

War happens for many reasons, but the goal is the same, control over our environments. Ideas are the excuses we make and those excuses do get complicated. It isn't that you can get rid of disagreements or differences, but we can work to a less violent world and make diplomacy more of a priority the more humans accept this.

Two things: War is aimed more at resources than at any of the other things mentioned. And the quote is 'full of sound and fury, signifying nothing'.

[Brian37]

So, how do we get the ones who can do this sort of thing to get all enlightened all of a sudden  without killing (pick one) most of them, all of them, all of them and everyone that agrees with them but wouldn't do that sort of thing unbidden ???

UGGGGG, I was just on twitter with someone making this argument.

I get falsely accused of saying "do nothing" or " Coddle their insecurities and never pick on Islam".

Twitter sucks because you cant make a detailed argument.

So here goes.

YES GO AFTER BAD IDEOLOGY, PICK ON THE KORAN AND MO ALL YOU WANT.......

YES, go after violent individuals YES YES YES......

But, in doing that there are still billions of humans who hold that label. Whatever we respond with cannot involve an "all or nothing" approach. It can be a very slippery slope that leads to the same type of cruelty that was done to Native Americans and blacks and Jews.

There is no blanket solution. I do agree with pointing out the bad claims that lead to their acts of cruelty. I do agree with challenging Islam to face it's collective bad climate. But I will not risk in doing that becoming a monster myself. Humans will always be individuals to me first, even if I am going after bad claims and bad climates.

You cant simply murder billions of people, and if nobody is claiming that, then we have to pick our battles.

[Minimalist]

When it comes to war there are real reasons.... which are seldom talked about... and there are emotional reasons.  The latter are talked about ad nauseam.

[Brian37]

When it comes to war there are real reasons.... which are seldom talked about... and there are emotional reasons.  The latter are talked about ad nauseam.

Emotions are not bad things to have, but worldwide, we unfortunately have too much of a tendency as a species to allow our emotions to rule us.

[Minimalist]

They are when they replace thinking.

[Brian37]

They are when they replace thinking.

Yea and? Glad he had his ass handed to him.

Still don't see what that has to do with combating Islam. There are still billions of Muslims. So unless your policy is to murder billions of humans, and I don't think that is your policy, then we still are relegated to picking our battles. None of what I said advocates "do nothing".

I said before we SHOULD attack the bad claims in the Quran and point out the use of Islam as a weapon against the west. And certainly to after violent people. WE SHOULD do that.

It would still make us monsters if we took the same "kill em all" mentality many in the East take. I simply am not willing to take a blanket approach. Tactics matter, that is not saying do nothing.