Problem dealing with death as an atheist

[jason56]

Having read this thead, I've turned to God.

you can now find me on http://www.godforums.org

[Carnavon]

Death is just something that happens, isn't it? It's like going to sleep? Rather concentrate on what is beautiful and magnificent in this life and what we have, while we have it. I have always found that you will eventually be able to deal with whatever comes your way. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bL3GR4iA...re=related

[Sarcasm]

Lol, i prefer to think of it as an adventure. Nobody knows what happens after death, so when you experience it anything could happen.

[reverendjeremiah]

Having read this thead, I've turned to God.

you can now find me on http://www.godforums.org

For some reason...no..I will just flat out accuse you of lying. You were a god believer BEFORE you read this thread. A thread like this does not turn one from an atheist to a strong god believer. I call you on that.

As far as becoming a god believer. Feel free, by all means. It doesnt bother me. Its your life. My mind is free of intellectual suicide, so.. whatever...enjoy your delusions of grandeur and escape from reality.

Just dont post some crap like that and think we take you seriously, or take it as a truthful post, or that we will not call you on it.

[Zenith]

Death is just something that happens, isn't it? It's like going to sleep? Rather concentrate on what is beautiful and magnificent in this life and what we have, while we have it. I have always found that you will eventually be able to deal with whatever comes your way. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bL3GR4iA...re=related

I guess the hardest thing to do for a person in his position is to commit suicide. I mean, how can you do it when you have no arms and no legs?? I think all the ordinary methods (razor-blade, hang yourself, put gas on yourself and light a fire, get on top of a building to throw yourself from there, etc.) all require hands or legs! I guess the only choice is to go to a street hoping that a car would eventually hit you - which is pretty hard, because the drivers would very probably stop the car when they see you! (and you really move slowly, so they have time to see what you're trying to do)

If I had been in his shoes, I might have found out a way to commit suicide finally, and do it. I don't need titles nor fame nor people's appreciation as I need my hands and legs and the freedom I have when I don't need anyone to read a book or to write something or to have a walk, etc. But I guess you see things very differently when you don't have what everybody else is having, and perhaps being taken outside for a walk by someone can be as joyful for one like him as it is for a common man to go to a party or something.

[Skipper]

I guess the hardest thing to do for a person in his position is to commit suicide. I mean, how can you do it when you have no arms and no legs?? I think all the ordinary methods (razor-blade, hang yourself, put gas on yourself and light a fire, get on top of a building to throw yourself from there, etc.) all require hands or legs! I guess the only choice is to go to a street hoping that a car would eventually hit you - which is pretty hard, because the drivers would very probably stop the car when they see you! (and you really move slowly, so they have time to see what you're trying to do)

If I had been in his shoes, I might have found out a way to commit suicide finally, and do it. I don't need titles nor fame nor people's appreciation as I need my hands and legs and the freedom I have when I don't need anyone to read a book or to write something or to have a walk, etc. But I guess you see things very differently when you don't have what everybody else is having, and perhaps being taken outside for a walk by someone can be as joyful for one like him as it is for a common man to go to a party or something.

lol.

[Carnavon]

But suppose this thread is about death, rather than life. What are the odds that there is life after death? If you were a gambling man, what would you do to hedge the odds?

[Zenith]

Having read this thead, I've turned to God.

you can now find me on http://www.godforums.org

For some reason...no..I will just flat out accuse you of lying. You were a god believer BEFORE you read this thread. A thread like this does not turn one from an atheist to a strong god believer. I call you on that.

As far as becoming a god believer. Feel free, by all means. It doesnt bother me. Its your life. My mind is free of intellectual suicide, so.. whatever...enjoy your delusions of grandeur and escape from reality.

Just dont post some crap like that and think we take you seriously, or take it as a truthful post, or that we will not call you on it.

I also believe that there's something strange about that post. Besides of the fact that the link is bad, I can't believe that the discussions on this thread could make someone believe in God. I mean, a saying like "there's no point to fear death, we will meet it anyway" CANNOT make someone believe that God exists. Then, in order for a man to have strong beliefs in the opposite philosophy (whichever that is) there is need of much time (i.e. first doubt of what you already believe, then starting to think about the other version, studying about it, asking questions, etc. and it leads you more and more to the other side). Well, I've also heard that a woman understood that Islam is the true religion when she looked into the eyes of a certain old muslim, when they were in jail, but that's an exception (probably, sanity problems).

So I guess that this guy has either been doubting his faith (probably Christianity) and something that was written made him believe that God must truly exist (though I have no idea what that could be) or he had been an atheist in the beginning but he's been turning more and more towards theism in time, and after reading this thread, he's made the final step. Or it's a fake.

---

But suppose this thread is about death, rather than life. What are the odds that there is life after death? If you were a gambling man, what would you do to hedge the odds?

well, I guess that in order to understand death we must first understand life. I mean, if scientists could create a human being from atoms (without using already living cells) then that would disprove the existence of soul (the soul being the person, without the body - and to exist) - because, if the soul exists, it is it that which animates the body and is probably the origin of will, individualism (i.e. the one that makes him be not a robot - a mechanical machine that only reacts to stimuli - but to have his own conscience and thus personal choice), etc.

If the whole human being can be created from chemical ingredients (i.e. atoms) then that would mean that there is no soul to interfere. If there is no soul, then we are only material things that really cease to exist by death. If a full human being cannot be created from chemical ingredients, then it means that there is a soul that we cannot provide (but "cannot" is probably an impossible thing to prove, because there may be hope after innumerable attempts).

So, we'll probably have to wait from 1000 to 10000 years to see if scientists can really create a human being from atoms (which would require a lot of study in all those years and a lot of failed attempts). At the end of those 10000 years, if they still did not succeed, then they would say that "soon enough we will discover the secret", so only if they succeed we would be able to know for sure.

For now, I guess we can only gamble.

[Carnavon]

So, we'll probably have to wait from 1000 to 10000 years to see if scientists can really create a human being from atoms (which would require a lot of study in all those years and a lot of failed attempts). At the end of those 10000 years, if they still did not succeed, then they would say that "soon enough we will discover the secret", so only if they succeed we would be able to know for sure.

For now, I guess we can only gamble.

Exactly. So you gamble using the information you have available? The information you supplied (and scientifically true), suggests that the odds are in favour of a soul, not so? (using your argument). Thus any choice that is made in opposition to available facts is made on the basis of personal preference?
Another aspect to consider is that the "creation" of a human by scientific methods does not by implication suggest that a soul would be absent. Normal fertlilization of an egg by a sperm cell does not by implication suggest the presence of a soul.
Getting down to it, the chances are 50/50 that a soul exists after death (although near-death experiences suggests odds in favour of a soul seperate from the body).
Considering this, and knowing what the alternatives are for the destination of the soul, would a shrewd person not hedge his bets by taking the safest option - where the potential "penalties" are eliminated without any negative consequences of this choice?

[Zenith]

Another aspect to consider is that the "creation" of a human by scientific methods does not by implication suggest that a soul would be absent. Normal fertlilization of an egg by a sperm cell does not by implication suggest the presence of a soul.

Actually, the creation of a human by scientific methods does imply that a soul is absent: firstly, it implies that life has been born accidentally, by biological means. Secondly, if man can create man, then it means that a man with a soul is the same as a man without soul, which means that the soul is the same as non-existing, which implies that the soul does not exist. Also, if a man is created by scientific methods, then that contradicts the christian bible, because the bible claims that the man became a living being by receiving a soul.

As about cells and humans, in the bible it is written that the man has begun to live by receiving the "breath/spirit of life" (breath = spirit). About the animals it is also mentioned that they have "breath/spirit of life". About plants is never mentioned that they would have "life" (or, spirit of life) in them. It also think that it sounds absurd to claim that every cell has a soul.

Anyway, a question for you: if you believe in God, and if a man is created by scientific means (i.e. without soul) then will he go to paradise or to hell, after death? Because, he would be a normal man, just like you and me, doing and feeling and believing things, just like you and me, etc.

And the creation of a living cell from atoms also implies that life has been created by accident.

Exactly. So you gamble using the information you have available? The information you supplied (and scientifically true), suggests that the odds are in favour of a soul, not so? (using your argument). Thus any choice that is made in opposition to available facts is made on the basis of personal preference?
Getting down to it, the chances are 50/50 that a soul exists after death (although near-death experiences suggests odds in favour of a soul seperate from the body).
Considering this, and knowing what the alternatives are for the destination of the soul, would a shrewd person not hedge his bets by taking the safest option - where the potential "penalties" are eliminated without any negative consequences of this choice?

I was almost certain that you would lead the discussion here. The first problem with your theory is that a man cannot believe in God because He may exist. The second problem is this: what are the odds that your religious path is correct? For instance, if the islamic god Allah exists (and He may exist though He is unfair, racist, a deceiver, etc. - a god that perhaps no mentally healthy person would desire), then you will go in the hell He has prepared, because you are a christian. You can't just pick the seemingly safest theory, because you always have something big to lose, if you're wrong.

As about NDEs, they seem to prove the existence of souls. e.g. I've read or heard somewhere that after a 'death' experience, the person has heard and seen things that happened after the brain ceased to function. And, if I remember well, there was also a thing when a blind person from birth had a surgery and got to a NDE, after which he/she has claimed to have seen for the first time, and he/she has described the objects in the surgery room correctly.
Also, I've just found this: http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence03.html
However, these are not "evidence", because they cannot answer to the impossible question "what if it's not so?" (i.e. in this particular case, "what if there is another explanation?").