Problem dealing with death as an atheist

[Thor]

Consider for a moment that you are implying that things "self-assemble" into very complex units - the likelihood being much smaller than what is normally regarded as no possibility.

Consider for a moment that you are suggesting that all life was created by an invisible, all-powerful being who simply willed it into existence.

You thus prefer to believe what is impossible rather than believe in a Creator.

And what makes abiogenesis impossible? I prefer to believe in things that have evidence to support them. As for your "Creator", there is zero evidence.

[bozo]

Carnavon wrote:
You are correct. It is a choice whether you accept it or reject it. Does it mean that you would prefer to rather ignore the possibility that you will eventually have to take responsibility for your choices and actions?
As far as being a pain is concerned. Do you regard looking after people you love as a pain - whatever their condition? I bet you don't.

Sorry Carnavon, as far as I am concerned there is no choice involved in dying. You cannot " reject " it. What do you mean?
I totally reject the faintest possibility of " judgement day ". But if there is, I will defend my earthly life and how I chose to live it.
My mother is 95 and is a resident in a care home. She is well cared for and is still lucid...BUT she can't see, she can't hear and is basicaly waiting to die. Visits are a bit of a challenge and yes, even though she's my mother, old age is a pain for all concerned.

[Zenith]

The idea with the secret of life is not is not that people would disagree that a cell is formed of lifeless particles - no one disagrees with that (I guess). The idea is the thing that makes a cell function (i.e. live): is it only chemistry? is it physics laws? And what does it make the living cell cease to function? Can one revive a cell after it's dead for a day? if not, why (if the cell has every component there, what's wrong?)? How does a cell know what molecules to consume? Have you studied how the cell functions and can provide physical & chemical explanations that clarify absolutely everything?

Look up "Enzymes". That would be a great start to help you understand how these functions happen. Also look up "Virus".

That's not a good explanation. My question is "how exactly"?

I've taken a look about the enzymes, a thing that I did not understand

Some of the enzymes showing the highest specificity and accuracy are involved in the copying and expression of the genome. These enzymes have "proof-reading" mechanisms. Here, an enzyme such as DNA polymerase catalyzes a reaction in a first step and then checks that the product is correct in a second step. This two-step process results in average error rates of less than 1 error in 100 million reactions in high-fidelity mammalian polymerases.

how exactly does the enzyme copy and check?

Anyway, the fact is that if scientists understood everything about cells, they would have created one from scratch (directly from atoms) in a laboratory, and the cell would have lived. So far, it seems that they've succeeded in making an artificial DNA (this DNA was not invented by them, but it was made to be the same as a specific DNA, if I remember right), and have replaced a cell's DNA with that one. On the news (I had found an article then), in the same article, I found statements like "science has created a cell from scratch", "scientists have successfully revived a cell!" AND that "they replaced the DNA of a cell with another one" - all these three different things were said in the same news article! When it seems that the true story was that they replaced the DNA of a cell with a DNA made in laboratory.

Also, why do cells have a lifespan? Why do they not just... live forever?

If there are very simple answers to my questions, then sorry (I don't know too many things on the subject "cell biology").

[Zenith]

Actually, the creation of a human by scientific methods does imply that a soul is absent: firstly, it implies that life has been born accidentally, by biological means. Secondly, if man can create man, then it means that a man with a soul is the same as a man without soul, which means that the soul is the same as non-existing, which implies that the soul does not exist. Also, if a man is created by scientific methods, then that contradicts the christian bible, because the bible claims that the man became a living being by receiving a soul.

You claim that life is in any case accidental, yet accept that you have a soul. So being accidental has nothing to do with having a soul, according to your own arguments.

Sorry, I meant "the creation of a human by scientific methods suggests that a soul is absent".

"You claim that life is in any case accidental, yet accept that you have a soul" - how did you get to that conclusion??

The argument was actually about conception and the act of normal conception implying a soul - which you have now also refuted.

I'm having a hard time understanding what you mean. Also, I'm not sure what you understood from what I've said.

Your assumption is incorrect, as I have indicated. You state for a fact that which you do not know (man created by chemistry is void of a soul). What is your basis for claiming that man created by human effort and using non-living matter will be void of a soul?
If a human is without a soul, what would go to hell?

So I have to ask you this question: what do you understand of "soul"? The 'soul' is usually regarded as something of the 'spiritual' realm. So you can't put one atom + one atom = spirit/soul.

How come? What is your basis for suggesting this? It seems to me a very deliberate and non-random action with a specific purpose in mind, contrary to willy nilly aberrations.

Sorry, again I meant "And the creation of a living cell from atoms also strongly suggests that life has been created by accident". Think about this: if a cell will be created tomorrow by scientists, directly from atoms, what would everybody say? "We made what God did millions of years ago!"??

You are correct, one cannot believe in God of his own volition. One reason being that man, as a fallen creature, will not seek God.

I meant, it's a logical problem. The same reason one can't believe that there are actually 12 gods, even though many would say "it is possible". That "possible" lacks many things to become "obvious" (or at least, very credible).

So God has to take the "first step" - and He does as it is stated that He loved us while we were still sinners, and sent his Son to die for our sins without us having to "deserve" it.

1. If God must take the "first step", why did you take the first step by starting to preach Him?
2. You believe that you can recite a christian theory as some "magical words" that is supposed to make God convert people.

As far as other religions are concerned, I would assess whether what they claim, is indeed true (as far as I can verify objectively). Now it is open for everybody to see that archeological discoveries confirm the Bible, prophecies indicates prior knowledge and creation suggest intelligent design.

Bold statement! Ask people about the Bible and you'll get thousands of contradictions, historical problems, logical problems, moral problems, etc. from them. You just assume that everybody believes that the Bible is undoubtedly the "perfect", trustworthy book. In other words, everybody (or yeah, all atheists, agnostics, deists, etc.) sees the Bible just like the Qur'an and any other book. I'm also certain that you didn't study about any other religion (well, perhaps not even about your own religion - all this theory of yours may be simply what a preacher taught you).

About NDE, you said:

Yes indeed, it is not irrefutable evidence. My question is only this:" If an honest man has all this information available, what conclusion would he come to?

The conclusion: "It cannot be known".

This is not to suggest that all questions are answered. There is the problem of suffering. There I can only speak for myself in that the part of my life where I was supposed to have the worst "suffering"

A man cannot believe that your religion is true for the sole reason that if you may somehow be right, he'll go to hell.

I doubt that you'll really understand many what I said, but anyway... .

[JohnDG]

We all fear death conciously or unconciously, one day you will die. But for now make the most of your life, do something great in your life that makes it okay to die. Live to the fullest without messing up the rest of your life. Or just read my quote... lol

[Zenith]

An honest and EDUCATED man would look at all of the evidence science has gathered and come to the conclusion that Gods, souls, and religion are not needed...and are more than likely fictional.

I believe you're wrong here: science is not needed for many as well. I mean, a lot of people can live happily even though they may believe that the earth is flat, that having sex with a goat may bring good fortune, etc. There are also a lot of idiots full of money, and many wise men that can barely sustain their life with the money they earn. Whom does knowledge/wisdom/science favor here? It seems that knowledge/wisdom/science is not a NEED for the former (though it may be useful).

as about the greek religion: I'm curios, how did you get to study about it? I was never fascinated by it to start studying it seriously.

They had many different kinds of afterlives, and some even believed in reincarnation on top of it. For the most part normal mortals went to Hades. Hades was not "satan" back then. He was the judge of the mortals.

I guess Hades was presented in a myth as trying to rule over all living world (a conspiracy to dethrone Zeus), wasn't he?

Those who did specific things or kindnesses and such were allowed to enter Elysium. Those who did not stayed in the realm of Hades, or were eaten by Cerebus, or Orcus, or Thanatos (depending on what Helenic sect you were).

I guess they did not have a problem with sleeping with animals or incest. As far as I know, greek gods were practicing incest, right? :))

I know that homosexuality was not seen as something 'normal' everywhere though.

If you were a member of the Orphic mysteries, or one of the many mystery cults they had back then (eventually Christianity sprouted as a greek/hebrew inspired mystery cult) you would become "one" or live forever in the after life with your god (who was usually killed, born again, raised from the dead..the mystery cults get pretty deep).

Can you tell me more about it? or give me a link with more details about it? I know that there were more influences in europe in the ancient world (centuries 1, 2, etc.). One of them was gnosticism, which attached both to christianity and judaism. I know that there was some theory, if I remember well, that came from the eastern religions, perhaps from hinduism, that taught to abstain yourself from sex all your life, as some religious purity or something. I guess that from there came the theory that the "Virgin Mary" must have remained virgin all her life - and this was most surely contrary to the Jewish life of the 1st century.

Also I'm interested when that theory began. If I remember well, the greek 'religion' survived until about the 7th religion AD, and religions and religious philosophies tend to influence each other in time. But I guess it's hard to find out when exactly a myth began.

Quite frankly the popular religions of today are dwarfed by the entire Helenistic pantheon, and I dont even know all of it, after years of study.

It is obvious that the greek culture influenced Christianity. Philosophies in the first place (e.g. Aristotle). Then, when Christianity was made an official religion by Emperor Constantine, he made it the same as the pagan 'religion' was: a priest was assigned for every 'church', as a pagan priest was assigned for every temple, christian priests weren't required to pay taxes, they were payed by the empire (as the pagan priests were), and the christian priests took the same role in the church as the pagan priests took in the temple.

Popular ones of THOSE days I can pull from my memory:

Bachus/ Dionysos

Apollonius of Tyana (mortal worshipped as the son of god)

Demeter/Persephone/Hades

Pythagoras (mortal who was worshipped as the son of god)

You know, the interesting thing is that the Jews also had a concept "son of God", even before being forcibly hellenized (it seems there were some wars and a Seleucid Emperor put a statue of Zeus in the Temple of Jerusalem and sacrificed a pig on the alter to him, and the Jews didn't like that, so they were being killed and stuff).

Anyway, the meanings I know in the Jewish Bible about "Son of God" is:
1. In the Bible God referred to the people of Israel as His "son".
2. It seems that angelic beings (angel = whatever else is in heaven that serves God) were called "sons of God". About the King David and also about King Solomon - he was a son of David and became king after him, it is written that God chose him (first, David, then, Solomon) as His "son", as His "firstborn" (here, firstborn is rather a right, rather than a literal meaning - a man could become "firstborn") . And the Messiah, son (i.e. descendant) of David was also going to be called "son of God" and "firstborn" of God.
3. It seems that "son of God" meant something like relationship, rather than a physical/biological result (i.e. sexual intercourse in which a "god" sleeps with a goddess or a woman and the offspring is, willingly or unwillingly belonging to the god).

Anyway, it makes perfect sense what Pontius Pilate understood when the Jews told him that Jesus called himself "son of God" (which sounded to him, the son of their god). The emperor/king was also considered in greek and egyptian 'religions' as "son of a god", so this combined with Jesus being called "king of the Jews", it made perfect sense to him :)).

---

We all fear death conciously or unconciously, one day you will die. But for now make the most of your life, do something great in your life that makes it okay to die. Live to the fullest without messing up the rest of your life. Or just read my quote... lol

I guess the only possible way not to fear death, if you don't believe in an afterlife, is to desire it :))
Think about if: if you're living a crappy life, and can't enjoy anything or almost anything of it, and your life is like hell, and can't do anything to change it, then you'll see the "end" as a 'happy ending' :))

[sacrilicious]

I remember reading a comment once that stated that death is as eventful as your existence before birth. I don't want to cease to exist at this time, but I think death is the end of experience. Why fear what I can't experience?

[downbeatplumb]

Death I dont fear, dying is a different matter altogether.

[Napoléon]

Death I dont fear, dying is a different matter altogether.

is that a quote? i'm sure i've heard that somewhere!

[Zenith]

I remember reading a comment once that stated that death is as eventful as your existence before birth. I don't want to cease to exist at this time, but I think death is the end of experience. Why fear what I can't experience?

That's not "not fearing death" but "ignoring death". Think about this: if you knew that after exactly 12 hours you would certainly die (inevitably - you cannot do anything about it), would you not fear it?

I believe that most people (90% or more) do fear death on the deathbed, whether they are atheists, deists, christians, muslims, etc. Until then, they can dream of a beautiful afterlife or just label it a "cease of existence". But, on the deathbed, most surely anything you were certain about becomes a "complete uncertainty" (and that's scary).

Anyway, I'm certain that most people, if not all, that attempt a suicide, also fear death - they're more convinced of its reality than a happy man that is in the middle of a party. Consider: why do you fear to throw yourself from the top of a high building? that you would survive?? You will not feel anything when you hit the ground! (well, if the building is high enough). If a man decides to commit suicide by throwing himself from the top of the building, but before he is ready to throw himself, you push him towards the edge, won't he fear that he would fall?? Why does he need to "be ready"?

So this "I don't fear death" I cannot believe. That's just ignoring the subject, stepping over it.