Live stream of Dem Convention.

[Brian37]

The Bernie voters shouldn't be wasting their time at the DNC. Hilary Bots  be like "they've had their fun, now shut up and for Hilary". They can achieve their aims in the Green Party and make them stronger instead of trying to reform the counter-revolutionary Democratic Party which won't give them the change they want. Tim Kaine is pro-tpp, Wall Street and bank deregulation.

Did you watch the convention or you just going to assume that politicians never change their positions? I am sick of voters blaming politicians. If we want them to change WE have to be that change. FYI Several speakers condemned TPP yesterday. Now, if you want to hold them to it, YOU have to tell them everyday to force them to commit to that.

[SteelCurtain]

The entire bevy of speakers last night bemoaned and called for TPP to never hit the Senate floor.

As the straws all these crybabies are clinging to disappear, hopefully they'll come to their senses. The revolution isn't over. I know you want it now, but that's not the way this one's going to happen.

[ReptilianPeon]

The Bernie voters shouldn't be wasting their time at the DNC. Hilary Bots  be like "they've had their fun, now shut up and for Hilary". They can achieve their aims in the Green Party and make them stronger instead of trying to reform the counter-revolutionary Democratic Party which won't give them the change they want. Tim Kaine is pro-tpp, Wall Street and bank deregulation.

Did you watch the convention or you just going to assume that politicians never change their positions? I am sick of voters blaming politicians. If we want them to change WE have to be that change. FYI Several speakers condemned TPP yesterday. Now, if you want to hold them to it, YOU have to tell them everyday to force them to commit to that.

From my perspective I'm more concerned about the Atlantic version of TPP. Obama has been pushing hard for that and Hillary keeps changing her position on it. And the E.U. Elites haven't said too much critical about it. Europeans have fought hard for the public health care and we now have multi-nationals trying to privatise European health care with the Transatlantic Partnership. So, no, I don't trust the elites at the DNC on terrible trade deals.

Fortunately, I'm able to tell them at the ballot box I don't support cooperatists. The Green Party is stronger than ever in England. The elites in the UK are currently fighting amoungst themselves, and while they do that millions of people are voting against the status quo. I don't think Obama and Hilary will have their way on TTIP because Europeans are so against it, not because people at the DNC tell them free trade deals are a bad idea.

[Brian37]

The entire bevy of speakers last night bemoaned and called for TPP to never hit the Senate floor.

As the straws all these crybabies are clinging to disappear, hopefully they'll come to their senses. The revolution isn't over. I know you want it now, but that's not the way this one's going to happen.

BINGO, 

Progressives over decades have fallen for the same cult of personality the GOP has, politicians have been sold as individual cures and that is not how real life government works. In real life it is a collective effort. The GOP knows this and have been far better at controlling the narrative and getting state gov and midterms, and progressives have not been that organized.

Bernie is not a cure by himself, neither is Hillary. But right now at this point in history, we have to pick our battles and now is not the time to be so divided as to allow  very dangerous scapegoating demagogue. This isn't picking the lesser of two evils at this point, no. This is the choice between living to fight another day and blowing everything up and handing our government to WW2 German TP Trump. 

Trump has gone way beyond muckraking which has always existed in American politics. His selling of hate and bigotry isn't just a repeat of Jim Crow, that is vile enough by itself. No, he has piled on to that political scapegoating demagoguery to the point of demonizing Veterans and judges and blacklisting press from his events. The last person who used political demagoguery started WW2 to the cost of 50 million lives. Many would claim this is just an act, no, it isn't it is a very dangerous tone that if more politicians take in the future will topple our system of checks on power or become so ignored because of hyper nationalism the Constitution will be moot.

I am not going to get stuck on the accusations aimed at Hillary, there is a bigger picture going on here and we have to pick our battles and live to fight long term. 

Pick your battles. Right now we cannot afford Trump to control the White House or SCOTUS and if anyone thinks Bush Jr was bad, Trump will make him look like JFK. Trump would allow more of Citizens United. He would allow more attacks on women''s reproductive rights and voters rights. And after all the vile attacks on different nationalities, can anyone trust him to global diplomacy? I can live with anything Hillary has done, but I cannot live with a very dangerous demagogue.

[Tiberius]

The entire bevy of speakers last night bemoaned and called for TPP to never hit the Senate floor.

...and yet the DNC decided not to make that part of their official platform, and Clinton chose a TPP supporter as her running mate. Clinton herself was for TPP, then against it (as she tried to do her best Sanders impression during the primaries), and after the election she'll do another flip flop. TPP will likely pass under the Clinton administration.

[ReptilianPeon]

The entire bevy of speakers last night bemoaned and called for TPP to never hit the Senate floor.

...and yet the DNC decided not to make that part of their official platform, and Clinton chose a TPP supporter as her running mate. Clinton herself was for TPP, then against it (as she tried to do her best Sanders impression during the primaries), and after the election she'll do another flip flop. TPP will likely pass under the Clinton administration.

Exactly my point. But TPP wasn't the only issue I raised. You have pro Wall Street and endless war people built into the Democratic Party

[Divinity]

Uhh Tim Kaine actually reversed course on TPP.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/tim-kaine-ch...er-vp-nod/

Also of note from the same fucking article, Mike Pence is a supporter of TPP (which Trump fails to mention). Yes, Hillary flip flops a lot. That's a lot of politicians. She at the very least seems to be doing so on the basis of reading the electorate. Which isn't a bad thing.

[Brian37]

The entire bevy of speakers last night bemoaned and called for TPP to never hit the Senate floor.

...and yet the DNC decided not to make that part of their official platform, and Clinton chose a TPP supporter as her running mate. Clinton herself was for TPP, then against it (as she tried to do her best Sanders impression during the primaries), and after the election she'll do another flip flop. TPP will likely pass under the Clinton administration.

UGGGGGG yes and? I am sick of voters thinking we are powerless. We CAN and should remind them every single day now on that we don't like that. No pressure on them, no change. 

People do not even understand while Bernie was a push in the right direction, the awaking of workers started with the Occupy Movement even before Obama ran the first time, and it was Warren who as a politician made the first really loud condemnation of the 1% long before Bernie. But again, it is still ultimately up to US to be vocal every day and not make the stupid assumption that we are powerless. 

Progressives ARE on the right side of history as VOTERS as far as ideas, where we have failed has been in numbers and organization and that has allowed OUR politicians to be forced to play the GOP narrative. Bernie HAS made changes to the process and he WILL still be a voice, but one election is not the issue, it is also changing the House and Senate and State gov.

[Tiberius]

Uhh Tim Kaine actually reversed course on TPP.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/tim-kaine-ch...er-vp-nod/

Also of note from the same fucking article, Mike Pence is a supporter of TPP (which Trump fails to mention). Yes, Hillary flip flops a lot. That's a lot of politicians. She at the very least seems to be doing so on the basis of reading the electorate. Which isn't a bad thing.

That's good news. I still have my suspicions, and I still expect her to flip flop again on the issue once she is President. Flip flopping based on the reading of the electorate is most definitely a bad thing...it means she'll say anything to get elected, rather than actually expressing what her views are. She's already shown herself to be untrustworthy, so I just don't believe her when she promises to do x, y, and z as President.

[Divinity]

No, flipping by reading the electorate is a good thing, because it means they're listening to the people. Donald Trump is the guy going around saying whatever he wants to get himself elected. That's why he said that he'd punish women for abortions, then took it back. He's not been consistent in what he's been saying (as opposed to changing his views after 'absorbing new information'). It also means that they're listening to their party. There's this thing called compromise. Hillary has made some compromises with the Sanders campaign in order to better serve Liberals. I'm sure Sanders would have ended up doing the same things (Or do Sanders supporters think he could just grab Clinton voters without making some compromises?) I very much doubt Kaine would be flipping on this if Clinton planned on just opposing TPP to get votes. That's not to say Hillary wouldn't support a different free trade deal (or a modified TPP, but I don't think she'll support TPP in it's current form.

Platforms do evolve (except Republicans, because they don't fucking believe in evolution). Sometimes it's a matter of what's politically convenient (Many politicians opposed Gay marriage until the people came out for it). We'll always need politicians like Sanders who are ahead of the times, and ready to make the leap. But Politicians like Clinton and Obama who 'evolve' on positions are more likely to get elected because most people aren't there yet. This is because people themselves need to evolve on the issues. Many people I know who were against gay marriage, have changed their mind.