Apparitions from heaven???

[Doubting Thomas]

Well apparently those people who didn't see anything weren't devout enough.

I don't think so. 

Most people there, numbered in the tens of thousands, saw the zig zagging sun movements across the sky. But some didn't. Plenty of the ones who didn't were Catholic (as has been linked here already), and plenty of the ones who did were skeptic. 

That's the thing with miracles. We don't understand why God grants this gift to some but not to others.

I was being a bit snarky.  The reason some people "see" these "miracles" can easily be explained by the mass hysteria and ocular effects of staring at the sun.  Not everyone is going to stare at the sun at exactly the same time for the same length of time, so obviously not everyone would do it long enough for their eyes to start going screwy.

[Doubting Thomas]

I understand.

The thing is though, I just find it too much of a coincidence bc the children said something would happen at that same day and at pretty much that exact time even.

Not so unusual, because if it had remained cloudy and nothing interesting happened, then we'd have never heard about it.  Nor would we have a bunch of Catholics going on and on about what a miracle it was and the Vatican taking the three secrets seriously.  And again, it didn't happen right at the time the kids said it would, but an hour & twenty minutes later, so likely they were all standing around until something happened.

[Catholic_Lady]

I understand.

The thing is though, I just find it too much of a coincidence bc the children said something would happen at that same day and at pretty much that exact time even. If this was just an isolated event where people were going on about their daily lives and all of a sudden they saw the sun moving around through the sky just kind of randomly out of nowhere, I'd be a lot more skeptical that it was a miracle. 

But it's just the combination of everything that makes it convincing to me. The fact that it was predicted to almost the exact hour when it happened, the fact that it was seen by tens of thousands, including skeptics... the fact that it started and ended at the same time for everyone who saw it.... and even the wet clothes and wet ground became dry in seconds, as reported by many people. 

Those kids must have been really really lucky if they were just completely lying about the apparition of the Virgin Mary telling them something was going to happen at that same day at that same time... and then coincidentally enough there was something that was either the same mass hallucination or the same mass optical illusion by the thousands. Also, if this was just some illusion that happened because of the shape of the land, etc etc, then it seems like it would have happened there before and/or since then... and that people who lived in the area would be familiar with it. 

As I said, this is very convincing to me that it truly was a miracle that happened that day. But I'm not trying to get you guys to think it's convincing as well. It just simply makes more sense to me that it was a miracle than it does that it was some sort of elaborate coincidence in so many ways.

Yeah...I don't believe the kids were lying.
I find it far more likely that they were being deceived by someone else (possibly a team of people).
Someone who knew the land and who had noted consistent atmospheric phenomena throughout the years... There's another well known phenomenon here, the Summer of St. Martin, that happens yearly around November 11th (St. Martin's day, when we traditionally eat roasted chestnuts... global warming must be messing it up, as it seems to have passed by last week), but I remember it working like clockwork,
just last year.

It wouldn't take much to make those kids believe in what they were being told... Rural Portugal was pretty much pastoral - no sophistication of any kind... Very religious to begin with, so, by default, gullible.
Curiously, on the day the sun was seen to wobble, there was no apparition... no lady, no angel... just the sun. It's as if it would be impossible to pull such a trick in front of all those people.

So you think it was some sort of mass conspiracy magic trick by a team of people who got tens of thousands of people to see a sun moving around and changing colors and drying up their wet clothes and puddles in seconds at the exact time predicted??

I dunno... that seems even more far fetched imho lol.

[Catholic_Lady]

I understand.

The thing is though, I just find it too much of a coincidence bc the children said something would happen at that same day and at pretty much that exact time even. If this was just an isolated event where people were going on about their daily lives and all of a sudden they saw the sun moving around through the sky just kind of randomly out of nowhere, I'd be a lot more skeptical that it was a miracle. 

But it's just the combination of everything that makes it convincing to me. The fact that it was predicted to almost the exact hour when it happened, the fact that it was seen by tens of thousands, including skeptics... the fact that it started and ended at the same time for everyone who saw it.... and even the wet clothes and wet ground became dry in seconds, as reported by many people. 

Those kids must have been really really lucky if they were just completely lying about the apparition of the Virgin Mary telling them something was going to happen at that same day at that same time... and then coincidentally enough there was something that was either the same mass hallucination or the same mass optical illusion by the thousands. Also, if this was just some illusion that happened because of the shape of the land, etc etc, then it seems like it would have happened there before and/or since then... and that people who lived in the area would be familiar with it. 

As I said, this is very convincing to me that it truly was a miracle that happened that day. But I'm not trying to get you guys to think it's convincing as well. It just simply makes more sense to me that it was a miracle than it does that it was some sort of elaborate coincidence in so many ways.

It wouldn't take much to make those kids believe in what they were being told... Rural Portugal was pretty much pastoral - no sophistication of any kind... Very religious to begin with, so, by default, gullible.
Curiously, on the day the sun was seen to wobble, there was no apparition... no lady, no angel... just the sun. It's as if it would be impossible to pull such a trick in front of all those people.

Eh, the Virgin Mary could have appeared herself instead of the sun thing, but I honestly think that would have been easier to pull off if it was some sort of magic trick and much more easily able to be explained away. I think the sun literally starting to move around in the sky and change colors and drying up puddles is a lot more shocking and convincing and difficult to pull off than if a lady or winged person were to show up claiming to be divine.

[Catholic_Lady]

I don't think so. 

Most people there, numbered in the tens of thousands, saw the zig zagging sun movements across the sky. But some didn't. Plenty of the ones who didn't were Catholic (as has been linked here already), and plenty of the ones who did were skeptic. 

That's the thing with miracles. We don't understand why God grants this gift to some but not to others.

I was being a bit snarky.  The reason some people "see" these "miracles" can easily be explained by the mass hysteria and ocular effects of staring at the sun.  Not everyone is going to stare at the sun at exactly the same time for the same length of time, so obviously not everyone would do it long enough for their eyes to start going screwy.

But all the thousands of people it did happen to, had it happen at the exact same time. Which just so happened to be the time scheduled by the kids. And not a single one of them was like "yeah you know, I think I saw some weird lighting and some movement but it could have just been an illusion due to my tired eyes and bright lights." No one said that. You would think that's the first thing one of the skeptics would have said. Whatever happened had to have been convincing enough that no one who saw it questioned it as merely a hallucination or optical effect.

[Catholic_Lady]

I understand.

The thing is though, I just find it too much of a coincidence bc the children said something would happen at that same day and at pretty much that exact time even.

Not so unusual, because if it had remained cloudy and nothing interesting happened, then we'd have never heard about it.  Nor would we have a bunch of Catholics going on and on about what a miracle it was and the Vatican taking the three secrets seriously.  And again, it didn't happen right at the time the kids said it would, but an hour & twenty minutes later, so likely they were all standing around until something happened.

Actually the Lady was speaking in terms of solar noon. And she did appear to the children at solar noon, and then performed the miracle 20 minutes later.

[Cyberman]

Far-fetched?

"One nut spots a flying saucer; pretty soon, everyone's shaking hands with little green men."
(CE3K, iirc)

[RozKek]

It wouldn't take much to make those kids believe in what they were being told... Rural Portugal was pretty much pastoral - no sophistication of any kind... Very religious to begin with, so, by default, gullible.
Curiously, on the day the sun was seen to wobble, there was no apparition... no lady, no angel... just the sun. It's as if it would be impossible to pull such a trick in front of all those people.

Eh, the Virgin Mary could have appeared herself instead of the sun thing, but I honestly think that would have been easier to pull off if it was some sort of magic trick and much more easily able to be explained away. I think the sun literally starting to move around in the sky and change colors and drying up puddles is a lot more shocking and convincing and difficult to pull off than if a lady or winged person were to show up claiming to be divine.

It was caused by ocular effects from staring into the sun.

[RozKek]

I was being a bit snarky.  The reason some people "see" these "miracles" can easily be explained by the mass hysteria and ocular effects of staring at the sun.  Not everyone is going to stare at the sun at exactly the same time for the same length of time, so obviously not everyone would do it long enough for their eyes to start going screwy.

But all the thousands of people it did happen to, had it happen at the exact same time. Which just so happened to be the time scheduled by the kids. And not a single one of them was like "yeah you know, I think I saw some weird lighting and some movement but it could have just been an illusion due to my tired eyes and bright lights." No one said that. You would think that's the first thing one of the skeptics would have said. Whatever happened had to have been convincing enough that no one who saw it questioned it as merely a hallucination or optical effect.

Because they were told to look at the fuckin' sun maybe?? maybe that's why it happened at the same time? just mby?? Do you think they really knew that staring into the sun could cause such ocular effects?? Oh yes, of course, they were like "EVERYONE WHO STARTS SEEING MAD SUN SHIT RAISE YOUR HANDS" and everyone literally raised their hands at the exact same time, but they definitely didn't stare into it for many minutes which is definitely not enough to cause such ocular effects.

[RozKek]

I am losing my mind here, I think I'll just pretend this thread never happened and leave this.