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RE: Karma poll
November 17, 2016 at 8:06 pm
(November 17, 2016 at 9:41 am)Little Rik Wrote: How sad Ton. Hey, it's your idea, not mine.
Quote:You can not remove some of the negative in this universe in order to suit your agenda.
The positive-negative package come as it is.
You got to take it as it is.
Well of course I have to... I'm not a god. But if there was a god, she would have no problem removing and adding anything she wished. That would be one of the perks of being god, after all. So if we have a system where we cannot remove the negative and are forced to accept things as they are... then there is no god.
Quote:God system works.
Yours doesn't.
God's system works badly because it's stupid. Mine doesn't work because I am not god. Also, your explanation that a universe with fewer things going wrong is bad because god would be tempted to continue to improve it is also stupid. At some point, the allowances you have to make in order for god or karma to exist are so stupid that you have to accept the most utterly insane ideas in order to prevent yourself from rejecting it. But they're still stupid. They're still insane.
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."
-Stephen Jay Gould
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RE: Karma poll
November 18, 2016 at 10:07 am
(November 17, 2016 at 8:06 pm)Tonus Wrote: (November 17, 2016 at 9:41 am)Little Rik Wrote: How sad Ton. Hey, it's your idea, not mine.
Quote:You can not remove some of the negative in this universe in order to suit your agenda.
The positive-negative package come as it is.
You got to take it as it is.
Well of course I have to... I'm not a god. But if there was a god, she would have no problem removing and adding anything she wished. That would be one of the perks of being god, after all. So if we have a system where we cannot remove the negative and are forced to accept things as they are... then there is no god.
If there would be something wrong in God creation then the fault would have come up ages and ages ago
but it never happen that is why the universe existed for millions or billions of years and still go strong.
To remove the negative would mean to stop God creation but creation is there for a reason.
Creation will go on and on for ever Ton and both positive and negative must be there always. 
Quote:God system works.
Yours doesn't.
Quote:God's system works badly because it's stupid. Mine doesn't work because I am not god. Also, your explanation that a universe with fewer things going wrong is bad because god would be tempted to continue to improve it is also stupid. At some point, the allowances you have to make in order for god or karma to exist are so stupid that you have to accept the most utterly insane ideas in order to prevent yourself from rejecting it. But they're still stupid. They're still insane.
(bold mine)
God's system MAY works badly for those who got a thick brain not for the smart one
who understand that things can not pop up as per magic and run by themselves. 
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RE: Karma poll
November 18, 2016 at 10:27 am
(This post was last modified: November 18, 2016 at 10:27 am by Tonus.)
(November 18, 2016 at 10:07 am)Little Rik Wrote: If there would be something wrong in God creation then the fault would have come up ages and ages ago Conversely, if there is something wrong in God's creation, then the concept of God is either mistaken or false.
Quote:God's system MAY works badly for those who got a thick brain not for the smart one
who understand that things can not pop up as per magic and run by themselves.
I have explained how it is worse. You are defending it because you are working backward, starting with God and then trying to explain how it's possible that he created something that is so obviously flawed. Because I do not need to try to figure out how a perfect God creates such an imperfect universe, I am free to consider other possibilities including the one where he doesn't exist.
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."
-Stephen Jay Gould
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RE: Karma poll
November 18, 2016 at 10:41 am
(November 18, 2016 at 10:27 am)Tonus Wrote: (November 18, 2016 at 10:07 am)Little Rik Wrote: If there would be something wrong in God creation then the fault would have come up ages and ages ago Conversely, if there is something wrong in God's creation, then the concept of God is either mistaken or false.
Yes. 
Quote:God's system MAY works badly for those who got a thick brain not for the smart one
who understand that things can not pop up as per magic and run by themselves.
Quote:I have explained how it is worse. You are defending it because you are working backward, starting with God and then trying to explain how it's possible that he created something that is so obviously flawed. Because I do not need to try to figure out how a perfect God creates such an imperfect universe, I am free to consider other possibilities including the one where he doesn't exist.
All you have explained is that you think or believe that there is something wrong.
That does not mean that you are correct.
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RE: Karma poll
November 19, 2016 at 7:08 pm
(November 18, 2016 at 10:41 am)Little Rik Wrote: All you have explained is that you think or believe that there is something wrong.
That does not mean that you are correct.
I never thought I'd see the day when you'd drop a discussion. Color me amazed.
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."
-Stephen Jay Gould
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RE: Karma poll
November 21, 2016 at 9:18 am
(November 19, 2016 at 7:08 pm)Tonus Wrote: (November 18, 2016 at 10:41 am)Little Rik Wrote: All you have explained is that you think or believe that there is something wrong.
That does not mean that you are correct.
I never thought I'd see the day when you'd drop a discussion. Color me amazed.
Sometime I do drop a discussion if there is no more juice in that but if you think that you logic is full of juice then let us continue this discussion.
You were saying time and time again that this universe is full of imperfection and if a perfect God creates such an imperfect universe then there is no God or you consider other possibilities including the one where he doesn't exist........blah blah blah..
I already point out to you that your understanding that this universe is imperfect is yours and yours alone concept because the reality show us that an universe that last millions or billions of years can not possibly be imperfect.
Imperfections sooner or later lead to cracks and cracks lead to disaster.
Have you ever seen a disaster in the universe?
Really Ton. 
Can you give evidence that a disaster ever happened or is on the way?
People sooner or later die as well but that is also no evidence that a disaster ever took place.
NDEs experiences already show us that only the body die so who cares if our body die?
Life goes on and on until we (the real I) reach the goal of life so not only there ever was NOT a disaster but
there was a change for the better if of course we haven't got a thick brains that prevent us from going
forward.
Be positive son and everything will be fine.
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RE: Karma poll
November 21, 2016 at 12:19 pm
(November 21, 2016 at 9:18 am)Little Rik Wrote: You were saying time and time again that this universe is full of imperfection and if a perfect God creates such an imperfect universe then there is no God or you consider other possibilities including the one where he doesn't exist...
I did not say that this universe is "full of imperfection." I pointed out that a universe where people suffer unnecessarily and justice arrives too late to prevent it either does not have a god, or it has one that sucks. You have tried to explain why this state of affairs is either necessary or preferable to one where god prevents such suffering and injustice from happening in the first place. I have pointed out that it's a stupid explanation.
I wasn't complaining that you had dropped the discussion. I just didn't think it was possible for you to do so.
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."
-Stephen Jay Gould
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RE: Karma poll
November 21, 2016 at 12:27 pm
Hi, Rik.
You've been here three years. Has anyone on these boards ever been successful in changing your mind on anything?
Thanks!
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RE: Karma poll
November 22, 2016 at 9:58 am
(November 21, 2016 at 12:27 pm)Excited Penguin Wrote: Hi, Rik.
You've been here three years. Has anyone on these boards ever been successful in changing your mind on anything?
Thanks!
Yes but only one time.
About 2 years ago I was having a discussion about Shiva.
The guy that was discussing with me (I do not remember his name) said that there is no evidence that Shiva ever existed or existed 7000
years ago.
I carry the discussion with him for sometime insisting that Shiva did exist 7000 years ago.
I still believe that that is the case but there is no evidence of that so I was wrong in insisting that Shiva
was real and lived 7000 years ago.
Without evidence I should not have insisted and therefore I was wrong.
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RE: Karma poll
November 22, 2016 at 10:09 am
(November 22, 2016 at 9:58 am)Little Rik Wrote: (November 21, 2016 at 12:27 pm)Excited Penguin Wrote: Hi, Rik.
You've been here three years. Has anyone on these boards ever been successful in changing your mind on anything?
Thanks!
Yes but only one time.
About 2 years ago I was having a discussion about Shiva.
The guy that was discussing with me (I do not remember his name) said that there is no evidence that Shiva ever existed or existed 7000
years ago.
I carry the discussion with him for sometime insisting that Shiva did exist 7000 years ago.
I still believe that that is the case but there is no evidence of that so I was wrong in insisting that Shiva
was real and lived 7000 years ago.
Without evidence I should not have insisted and therefore I was wrong.
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