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RE: Atheists, tell me, a Roman Catholic: why should I become an atheist?
November 23, 2016 at 6:36 pm
All I'll say is that when I was having serious doubts, I prayed to God to show me in a way that I would know for sure that he is real. Now some 16 year later nothing has ever happened. So I can safely conclude that either: A. God doesn't want me to believe in him, or B. God doesn't exist.
Christian apologetics is the art of rolling a dog turd in sugar and selling it as a donut.
RE: Atheists, tell me, a Roman Catholic: why should I become an atheist?
November 23, 2016 at 6:46 pm (This post was last modified: November 23, 2016 at 6:47 pm by The Joker.)
(November 23, 2016 at 6:36 pm)Doubting Thomas Wrote: All I'll say is that when I was having serious doubts, I prayed to God to show me in a way that I would know for sure that he is real. Now some 16 year later nothing has ever happened. So I can safely conclude that either: A. God doesn't want me to believe in him, or B. God doesn't exist.
This is were Pascale Wagar argument kicks in.
Quote:Where are you going to place your bet?If you place it with God, you lose nothing, even if it turns out that God does not exist. But if you place it against God, and you are wrong and God does exist, you lose everything: God, eternity, heaven, infinite gain. "Let us assess the two cases: if you win, you win everything, if you lose, you lose nothing."~Peter Kreeft
RE: Atheists, tell me, a Roman Catholic: why should I become an atheist?
November 23, 2016 at 6:48 pm
(November 23, 2016 at 6:36 pm)Doubting Thomas Wrote: All I'll say is that when I was having serious doubts, I prayed to God to show me in a way that I would know for sure that he is real. Now some 16 year later nothing has ever happened. So I can safely conclude that either: A. God doesn't want me to believe in him, or B. God doesn't exist.
I had a similar experience with a similar outcome. I finally came to the conclusion that the idea of an all-loving god who loved me more than I was even capable of loving would not lay down one right path, allow Satan to lay down tens/hundreds of thousands and then simply expect me to find the one right path on my own with the intention of lighting me on fire for all eternity if I were tricked into choosing wrong, as the Bible clearly says most people searching will be, was a massively idiotic idea.
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RE: Atheists, tell me, a Roman Catholic: why should I become an atheist?
November 23, 2016 at 6:50 pm (This post was last modified: November 23, 2016 at 6:51 pm by Alex K.)
(November 23, 2016 at 6:46 pm)The Joker Wrote: This is were Pascale Wagar argument kicks in.
Quote:Where are you going to place your bet?If you place it with God, you lose nothing, even if it turns out that God does not exist. But if you place it against God, and you are wrong and God does exist, you lose everything: God, eternity, heaven, infinite gain. "Let us assess the two cases: if you win, you win everything, if you lose, you lose nothing."~Peter Kreeft
I don't know anyone by the name of Pascale Wagar, but I suspect the "argument" you give would work even better if
- there was only one possible God
- if belief was a choice that could be made honestly in reaction to a perceived threat
Both conditions are not met, and therefore the argument is completely invalid. But why am I wasting time on you?
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
RE: Atheists, tell me, a Roman Catholic: why should I become an atheist?
November 23, 2016 at 7:14 pm
(November 23, 2016 at 6:48 pm)Asmodee Wrote:
(November 23, 2016 at 6:36 pm)Doubting Thomas Wrote: All I'll say is that when I was having serious doubts, I prayed to God to show me in a way that I would know for sure that he is real. Now some 16 year later nothing has ever happened. So I can safely conclude that either: A. God doesn't want me to believe in him, or B. God doesn't exist.
I had a similar experience with a similar outcome. I finally came to the conclusion that the idea of an all-loving god who loved me more than I was even capable of loving would not lay down one right path, allow Satan to lay down tens/hundreds of thousands and then simply expect me to find the one right path on my own with the intention of lighting me on fire for all eternity if I were tricked into choosing wrong, as the Bible clearly says most people searching will be, was a massively idiotic idea.
I was taught that God doesn't give us undeniable proof of his existence as a test of faith...those with righteous minds would find him. Joker and any other Catholics, what are your thoughts on this?
RE: Atheists, tell me, a Roman Catholic: why should I become an atheist?
November 23, 2016 at 7:28 pm (This post was last modified: November 23, 2016 at 7:31 pm by Excited Penguin.)
(November 22, 2016 at 8:47 pm)Whateverist Wrote: [...]
(November 22, 2016 at 6:44 pm)Balaco Wrote: From what I understand, atheists do not accept the possibility of a supernatural being, and restrict themselves to our "natural" human thinking. Previously I thought that atheists are simply conditioned by society to the point where they are unable to "rationally" believe in a supernatural being.
For me, I just can't make sense of there being anything supernatural. If God existed, that would be natural. If miracles were a thing, they too would be natural but of a variety not understood by ourselves .. possibly they'd even be beyond our comprehension owing to our limitations. But that wouldn't make them something other than natural. We just have to realize that our perceptual/cognitive array is not the gold standard of what is natural. Everything out there is real and natural.
What I really believe in is the real world, including love and dreams and inspiration and wonder and all the other subjective states arising in our very real and natural brains. What offends me about the concept of the supernatural is the idea that the real world is only an idea in the divine mind. As though the real world about which we've learned so much were a facade brought into being on the whim of God. The idea of miracles as just the setting aside of the real-world divine idea when He finds it less convenient frankly offends me.
(November 22, 2016 at 6:44 pm)Balaco Wrote: Atheists, why do you reject the idea of God, and why should I? I know that your answers will include "there's no evidence" and all that, but please try to explain.
I don't reject the idea of gods. In fact I take them very seriously. I think they've played a big role in our becoming what we are. They are definitely part of the real world I am so passionate about. But I don't think they are entities in their own right. They live where they have always been, in our psyches. I have no doubt that consciousness is not simply the conscious mind along with a bunch of noise in the system. Consciousness need not be and most often is not unitary. I believe the mind is still fully capable of producing gods right there on board where believers encounter them - and no, I don't think they are just fooling themselves. In some ways the contributions of the other facets of consciousness create the ground of being which make our conscious lives possible. In that sense you can call them our creators. But no gods ever had a hand in creating the physical world. That sort of literalism should be avoided.
But that said, why become an atheist? I don't see any reason for it at all. If you have been raised in a culture that has brought you into a relationship with a God whose presence and company you enjoy, why give that up? I'd encourage you to avoid literalism in such things but I'm just one more adult in the world same as you. Do as you like.
I don't mind your pet theories about consciousness, stupid as they sound, but do try to make a little more sense, please.
RE: Atheists, tell me, a Roman Catholic: why should I become an atheist?
November 23, 2016 at 7:54 pm
(November 23, 2016 at 7:14 pm)Balaco Wrote: I was taught that God doesn't give us undeniable proof of his existence as a test of faith...those with righteous minds would find him.
“Life is like a grapefruit. Well, it's sort of orangey-yellow and dimpled on the outside, wet and squidgy in the middle. It's got pips inside, too. Oh, and some people have half a one for breakfast.” - Ford Prefect
RE: Atheists, tell me, a Roman Catholic: why should I become an atheist?
November 23, 2016 at 8:06 pm
(November 23, 2016 at 2:21 am)robvalue Wrote: If they are holding my future hostage in order to blackmail me into acting a certain way or kissing up to them, that is terrorism and I can't be doing with it.
I don't think you understand what terrorism means.
RE: Atheists, tell me, a Roman Catholic: why should I become an atheist?
November 23, 2016 at 8:32 pm
(November 22, 2016 at 6:44 pm)Balaco Wrote: Before I begin, I ask that you please avoid being hostile or anything. I'm a Roman Catholic, but I feel like many people of faith immediately jump to degrading atheists as people, rather than trying to understand their mindset. I'm heavily confused right now, and am asking both Catholic and atheist sites for their mindsets. Obviously, Catholics are going to defend Catholicism, while atheists are going to defend atheism. I ask that you please be civil about it, as this could be life-changing for me.
I've been questioning how to improve in my Roman Catholic faith lately...but this morning I came to the realization that I never really questioned my faith itself. I was lightly raised Catholic and recently took it upon myself to grow closer to God. Now, for probably the first time in my life, I feel like I'm genuinely considering atheism as a possibility.
From what I understand, atheists do not accept the possibility of a supernatural being, and restrict themselves to our "natural" human thinking. Previously I thought that atheists are simply conditioned by society to the point where they are unable to "rationally" believe in a supernatural being...God doesn't allow us universally undeniable proof of his existence as a test of faith. Now, though, I feel like it's impossible to tell whether that mindset is correct, or whether atheists are correct in their focusing on our natural human mindsets. I do feel like I've felt something while praying throughout the past.
The other night, for example, I was planning on praying for about fifteen minutes, but felt oddly calm and ended up taking about an hour. Now I feel like that could have just been because I was comfortable, and my mind was "making things up" as I was more convinced in my faith.
Atheists, why do you reject the idea of God, and why should I? I know that your answers will include "there's no evidence" and all that, but please try to explain.
its simple. While "nothing" is far less valid than "something", the god of the bible has less evidence.
The problem is you are using the data that says "something" is there and blowing up into a fairy tale. "something" doesn't mean a guy died, woke up, and then flew away.
