Caesarian births directly affecting human evolution

[downbeatplumb]

Caesarean births are leading to the genes preventing vaginal birth not being eradicated. This means that a higher and higher percentage of births need to be by C section.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-38214665

[chimp3]

So less women die in childbirth! Fuck those genes that prevent vaginal birth.

[vorlon13]

I'm assuming guys into that sort of thing would prefer a single use aperture instead of a design compromised for multiple purposes.

[The Grand Nudger]

The law of unintended consequences.  

My wife and I got lucky with our first together, in that she nearly died and our daughter only lost the use of her right arm at birth.  The fates decreed that she and I should have never had children together.  It would've been a shame, if that held, because we have a wonderful clutch of brothers and sisters whose parents love them and who love each other very, very much.   Frankly, we couldn't have survived the creeping disappointment of a childless marriage.  It was the singular and overriding drive to have a family that bound us first and most tightly.  

We both blamed ourselves,  in the long drives to Cinci for specialists, and worse.  Hours and hours of pregnant silence between us.  Caring for an infant with a non functional limb is exhausting.   She never learned to crawl, for example (how could she....).  If she rolled over onto her right side there was a distinct possibility that she would suffocate.  When she began to stand and waddle, if she fell...she couldn't catch herself, and kids are head-heavy.  She was meant to be the core of our happiness together, we were supposed to be made better by her presence as the best between us.  The reality of the matter was entirely different.  Sleepless nights, the economic burden of disability, silently building resentments and self loathing.  We were both, in retrospect, deeply depressed and trying to deal with it apart from each other....which doesn't exactly make a relationship stronger.  I was sleeping in a chair, my wife flirted with the idea of divorce, lol.


It was only when Lahni started to move her arm, against all expectation, that the seal on all of this private turmoil was broken.  I hear the wife scream from the other room, genuinely crying out to heaven.  My mind defaulted to the worst case scenario.  Our daughter had rolled over in her sleep, or fell down face first, or had caught her arm in something and unfeelingly broken it.  My wife was on her knees, holding one hand in the other so tightly her knuckles were white, praying.    We spent that night in bed together, all of us.  Happy, together, for the first time in a long time.

All of our other children were c-sections, without hesitation.  Sure, that's not "how it's meant to happen"...it completely evades any selective pressure and so allows "bad genes" through the first pass filter, birth.  That's the point.  The less sterile term for "selective pressure" in context is infant mortality rate (and related mortality rates in childbirth for the mother).   A c-section would have had the effect of avoiding both the lasting physical harm to our daughter and the temporary rift between us....and like I said above, we're the lucky ones......the ones where the mother only -nearly- died, and the child was only partially paralyzed, and whose relationships survived it.

[Minimalist]

Human evolution in the Darwinian sense has been screwed since Homo Erectus began caring for injured members of the group.  We have skeletal remains showing healed leg fractures going back over a million years bp.  In order for that person to survive long enough to have the bone heal other members of the group/clan had to take care of him.  Other animals simply do not do that.  If a lion is injured in a hunt it either lives or dies on its own.

[RozKek]

---

The law of unintended consequences.  

My wife and I got lucky with our first together, in that she nearly died and our daughter only lost the use of her right arm at birth.  The fates decreed that she and I should have never had children together.  It would've been a shame, if that held, because we have a wonderful clutch of brothers and sisters whose parents love them and who love each other very, very much.   Frankly, we couldn't have survived the creeping disappointment of a childless marriage.  It was the singular and overriding drive to have a family that bound us first and most tightly.  

We both blamed ourselves,  in the long drives to Cinci for specialists, and worse.  Hours and hours of pregnant silence between us.  Caring for an infant with a non functional limb is exhausting.   She never learned to crawl, for example (how could she....).  If she rolled over onto her right side there was a distinct possibility that she would suffocate.  When she began to stand and waddle, if she fell...she couldn't catch herself, and kids are head-heavy.  She was meant to be the core of our happiness together, we were supposed to be made better by her presence as the best between us.  The reality of the matter was entirely different.  Sleepless nights, the economic burden of disability, silently building resentments and self loathing.  We were both, in retrospect, deeply depressed and trying to deal with it apart from each other....which doesn't exactly make a relationship stronger.  I was sleeping in a chair, my wife flirted with the idea of divorce, lol.


It was only when Lahni started to move her arm, against all expectation, that the seal on all of this private turmoil was broken.  I hear the wife scream from the other room, genuinely crying out to heaven.  My mind defaulted to the worst case scenario.  Our daughter had rolled over in her sleep, or fell down face first, or had caught her arm in something and unfeelingly broken it.  My wife was on her knees, holding one hand in the other so tightly her knuckles were white, praying.    We spent that night in bed together, all of us.  Happy, together, for the first time in a long time.

All of our other children were c-sections, without hesitation.  Sure, that's not "how it's meant to happen"...it completely evades any selective pressure and so allows "bad genes" through the first pass filter, birth.  That's the point.  The less sterile term for "selective pressure" in context is infant mortality rate (and related mortality rates in childbirth for the mother).   A c-section would have had the effect of avoiding both the lasting physical harm to our daughter and the temporary rift between us....and like I said above, we're the lucky ones......the ones where the mother only -nearly- died, and the child was only partially paralyzed, and whose relationships survived it.

---

Damn, sorry that you had to go through such.

[vorlon13]

Yes. That was a tough read. So sorry that happened.

[The Grand Nudger]

I edited out the really miserable shit before i hit he post button, those were the relatively happy highlights, lol. The reason behind our decision, why we went the natural route was a lesson in the worst sorts of human insecurity for both of us. I'd tell anyone who's thinking of trying it the natural way when there's -any- appreciable risk involved, just scuttle that thought. Immediately. Have the operation. All of the articles online about the benefits of this that or the other natural birth that you may be using to provide cover rationalizations for why you -really- want to have the kid in a specific way......meaningless, dangerous, idiotic.

Don't be like us, lol.

(wanna see real misery, go to the nuero unit at a shriners hospital.......you'll either walk out of that place feeling better about your lot in life, or walk out and off a bridge)

[Angrboda]

Human evolution in the Darwinian sense has been screwed since Homo Erectus began caring for injured members of the group.  We have skeletal remains showing healed leg fractures going back over a million years bp.  In order for that person to survive long enough to have the bone heal other members of the group/clan had to take care of him.  Other animals simply do not do that.  If a lion is injured in a hunt it either lives or dies on its own.

Except that breaking a bone isn't directly related to a heritable trait. Presumably, those that have c-sections primarily are the ones for whom it is warranted. This is precisely the trait that would have culled these women from the gene pool were it not for cesarian sections.

[The Grand Nudger]

OTOH, those that may have been weeded out once upon a time might also carry some heretofore unknown but one day completely necessary trait, themselves.  As far as evolution goes, in a world with c sections those genes aren't a selective pressure anyway, which makes them no different than any other neutral heritable trait, of which we have a great many. We haven't upended evolution, or sidestepped it. The metrics have changed, as they always do.