Murder in Michigan

[Faith No More]

I agree. Are we going to start banning kitchen knives, gasoline, matches, etc.? The fact of the matter is, if a person is going to kill another person, he or she will find a way. Murder has been around long before guns. You might argue, well there is more murder now. That is true, but we have an insane population now as well. If we keep going this way, we're all going to go Easter Island, guns or no guns.

True, murder has been around long before guns and people will find other ways to kill each other. Guns, however, make killing a lot easier and make killing lots of people at once much easier. Do you think that nut-job in Arizona would have killed six people if he just had a knife? The fact is killing has and always be around, the gun just simplified the whole task and can turn one person into a crowd killer. If killing is a fact of life, why make it so easy for people?

[Shell B]

Guns, however, make killing a lot easier and make killing lots of people at once much easier.

I disagree. It is only easier in the sense that it is quick. It is, by no means, an easy way of killing lots of people in the sense that you will almost always get caught if you open fire at a group of people or go on a shooting spree. Plus, people in the crowd can run away, so not everyone dies. Gas is much more effective and less traceable. You can't ban gas, can you? Oh, bombs are pretty good at that too. They destroy a lot of evidence and kill massive amounts of people. Your average Joe can build an effective bomb. Are we going to start banning every part of explosive devices? How about cell phones? They're popular with the roadside bomb crowd. Oh wait, we're talking about white people dying. We can keep our cell phones because only brown people and those asshole soldiers die from bombs with cell phones on them. However, guns have to go.

The thing is, I have never understood this argument. Killing a lot of people is not a difficult thing. The reason it is not done that often is that most people don't want to murder people. The whole want thing is the problem. It isn't the weapon, it isn't the victim, it isn't the setting, it isn't the phases of the fucking moon. The only reason why people kill people with guns is because those people want to kill people. Now, I don't think it is fair that people who have guns to protect themselves at home from intruders should have to now physically fight off intruders (who probably have guns or some other weapons) just because people attribute insanity to guns.

Do you think that nut-job in Arizona would have killed six people if he just had a knife?

Stabbing six people in the kidney actually doesn't sound that difficult. In fact, fewer people would run if you got them in the lung as well. There would be no warning shot or screams. Don't get me wrong, I am only stating a point here. The idea of hurting people makes me ill.

The fact is killing has and always be around, the gun just simplified the whole task and can turn one person into a crowd killer. If killing is a fact of life, why make it so easy for people?

Fire simplified the task. Swords simplified the task. Bombs simplified the task. Biological weapons simplified the task.

[Cinjin]

Would less guns mean less murders? Yeah, probably. Would no guns mean no murders? Not by a fucking long shot!
Lets all just come clean and put it right out on the table. American's only on this one (only because you Brits don't live here).

Raise your hand if you would like to see our constitutional right to bear arms taken away.

Anyone?
And now tell me cherry pickers - which rights would you NOT like to see taken away??

Maybe we should all be careful about what liberties we go walking all over. If the Brits are happy to have less personal freedoms than us and don't want to have access to a firearm ... Good for them. Having a few less rights seems to work for them. I would personally prefer to uphold the US Constitution as is and keep the rights I have. You start letting them take ones away that you don't care about - someday they'll take away the ones you do.

EDIT: That being said, I'm all for tougher restrictions for both users and manufacturers if needs be.

[Minimalist]

30,000 people a year die because of guns in the US, Shel. That's not even beginning to look at the number who survive to one degree or another. How many Americans were killed with biological weapons last year? Or swords???

I get your point but I think you are being a little disingenuous.

People die in car crashes all the time but at least we take steps to license drivers and register cars. Second-hand smoke is cited as causing 3,000 deaths a year ( a tenth of gun carnage ) and you would think it was a major health scourge. [/i]

[Paul the Human]

If you make something illegal (like gun ownership), you create crime. If owning a gun makes you a criminal... only criminals will own guns. Gun control will NOT lower the crime and/or murder rate.

[Minimalist]

The NRA ( and their wholly-owned subsidiary, the Republican Party ) repeats that mantra over and over, Paul. Yet, the fact remains that among allegedly civilized and developed nations the US has a far greater incidence of shootings than countries with strict gun control.

I'm sorry....but that is reality.

[Shell B]

30,000 people a year die because of guns in the US, Shel. That's not even beginning to look at the number who survive to one degree or another. How many Americans were killed with biological weapons last year? Or swords???

Haha, I am not saying they are commonly used, Min. I am saying that, in the absence of guns, these weapons would be viable options for murderers. Now, if the argument was about accidental death, I could understand the contention. However, when it comes to murder, the weapon really becomes irrelevant to me. Serial killers often kill more than one spree killer with a gun and they rarely, if ever, use guns.

Now, perhaps not in the U.S., but there are places where sword like weapons are favored, particularly for cutting off limbs and leaving people to die in the desert.

I get your point but I think you are being a little disingenuous.

I disagree. I simply see the facts differently than you do. It doesn't mean I am ignoring them. Perhaps I am so utterly disgusted with the human race in general that I find removing one weapon as a means to save people as laughable. No one will be saved. People are nuts.

People die in car crashes all the time but at least we take steps to license drivers and register cars. Second-hand smoke is cited as causing 3,000 deaths a year ( a tenth of gun carnage ) and you would think it was a major health scourge. [/i]

Now that is another argument altogether. I am all for regulating gun ownership to any degree necessary (short of . . . ), but I disagree with removing guns from civilian hands altogether. That gives me the willies. Only criminals and law enforcement having guns is a fucking nightmare.

[Minimalist]

Now that is another argument altogether.

No, actually the NRA and their republican butt-buddies have made it the same argument.

[The Grand Nudger]

Even the devil gets something right time to time Min. As a side note, all manner of guns are manufactured with the responsible gun owner in mind, locks on the hammers themselves, takedowns, that sort of thing. There are millions of strange and counter-intuitive things when it comes to gun legislation, I'll agree. For example, here in my great state, most of the people who carry a firearm in a professional capacity are not required to have a permit.

[Shell B]

Now that is another argument altogether.

No, actually the NRA and their republican butt-buddies have made it the same argument.

Well, in a sane man's conversation, that is a different argument. I think guns should be kept away from the mentally ill, people who have severe anger management issues and people who are suicidal. Obviously, violent criminals top the list. The real problem is that they can get guns illegally. Now, if we take the law enforcement focus off of drugs (apart from production and sale of deadly drugs), we could put more focus on stopping illegal weapons sale. I often get frustrated with the cluster fuck that is our legal system. I am a cunt hair away from feeling hopelessness in that regard, largely because of the nonsense NRA and republican shit that you speak of. If one more asshole mentions abortion legislation to me, I might scream. With all of the fucking problems in the world, they want to focus on people's wombs. I don't tell them what to do when it comes to sharing a cup at a church and spreading illness.