Challenge

[bozo]

Hullo!
To myself: welcome to the Atheist Forum!
Myself: Thank youuu!

Hold on...! That's a weird kind of introduction...

Uh, anyways... Let's get to the core of the matter. Here's the deal:
I want you, you godforsaken Atheists, to challenge my belief. If you haven't noticed by my info on the top left corner, I am a follower of Christ; in other words, I don't have a religious affiliation. I don't need a priest to tell me what god wants to say to me - I get my info first hand .

The conclusion I have come to is that Jesus' words contain a truth that can't be found through the scientific method or any other strictly material means. The bible, as imperfect as it may sometimes appear to be, is a culmination of human attemps to establish our connection to god. It makes it possible for us to get into a relationship with the purest human to have walked on the face of the earth - and consequently with our creator himself.
I think it's insane to take the bible absolutely literally, but at the same time I am certain that everything the bible says is true and infinitely valuable.

Since, like I said, I believe this to be the truth, I don't mind some challenging questions.
Because you'll burn in hell anyway.
Juuust kiddin' ^^ !

No, I hope we can get into an enjoyable and peaceful discussion. I have seen my fair share of dogma on both sides of the fence, so I hope that we can stay civil and mature. Which means that you have to agree with everything I say. Or you'll burrrrn...!!! XD

(Please forgive me for my rather... peculiar sense of humor ^^ )

Since " God " probably doesn't exist and JC is the " son of god " , why should i/we bother engaging you?

[Sai]

And fr0d0's reply brings me onto another point. How do we really know what Jesus said and what people say he said. All the Biblical accounts are self contradictory and not a single non-biblical document exists that tells us what he said.

Like I said, if you read it like a historical document it will be messy. You are completely correct that it's flawed in that sense, it's a thousands of years old book written by many people after all. If I were to rewrite the bible, it would probably somewhat resemble the Jefferson Bible... XD
Because really, you must reconstruct it yourself before you can appreciate its value. Kinda like the rusty old sword that turns into a shining blade once polished, or sumthin'... (and this is not such a bad metaphor because you can cut yourself on the sides of the pages XD !!)

Yet, if you let your consciousness rest and read it with your soul (gaaah!! will you stop using that terrible word already <- to myself XD) you can connect it into one perfect spiritual entity... no words, no pages. A spiritual map to the live that we should be living, a live of truth. But alas, it's just a map and it won't magically turn you into a better person or make you walk on water or what have you.

Now, I suppose that this sounds pretty crazy and meaningless to you, but unfortunately there are some serious limits to my writing skills, I'm sorry...

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Since " God " probably doesn't exist and JC is the " son of god " , why should i/we bother engaging you?

Why, you don't! If it's a bother - please, by any means, use your time for something that you find more constructive. (Just don't hit me, 'kay? XD)

[bozo]

And fr0d0's reply brings me onto another point. How do we really know what Jesus said and what people say he said. All the Biblical accounts are self contradictory and not a single non-biblical document exists that tells us what he said.

Like I said, if you read it like a historical document it will be messy. You are completely correct that it's flawed in that sense, it's a thousands of years old book written by many people after all. If I were to rewrite the bible, it would probably somewhat resemble the Jefferson Bible... XD
Because really, you must reconstruct it yourself before you can appreciate its value. Kinda like the rusty old sword that turns into a shining blade once polished, or sumthin'... (and this is not such a bad metaphor because you can cut yourself on the sides of the pages XD !!)

Yet, if you let your consciousness rest and read it with your soul (gaaah!! will you stop using that terrible word already <- to myself XD) you can connect it into one perfect spiritual entity... no words, no pages. A spiritual map to the live that we should be living, a live of truth. But alas, it's just a map and it won't magically turn you into a better person or make you walk on water or what have you.

Now, I suppose that this sounds pretty crazy and meaningless to you, but unfortunately there are some serious limits to my writing skills, I'm sorry...

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Since " God " probably doesn't exist and JC is the " son of god " , why should i/we bother engaging you?

Why, you don't! If it's a bother - please, by any means, use your time for something that you find more constructive. (Just don't hit me, 'kay? XD)

I don't see the point in debating with the likes of you. The starting point must be " god ", whether he/she/it actually exists and if he/she/it had a son etc etc etc ad nauseam.

[Sai]

I mean is there anything supernatural here that you believe in exactly?

I'm sorry to confuse you... Well, I don't think there is value in a distinction between natural and supernatural, but if I had to, I would say that we are all supernatural, believing that we are natural (uh, i think that may sound even more confusing ^^'). But I'm more comfortable with "natural". God is definitely natural. No point in adding "super" just to make it sound flashy.

What are these 'spiritual truths' that you understand through your 'spiritual senses' that separates these 2 things from simply 'truths' and 'senses'? (i.e, where does the 'spiritual' part come in? What do you believe?).

Simplified it's something along these lines: the piano is matter, the music is the spirit. But it doesn't help describing it, just like describing a song won't make you actually hear it... (but that's partly my fault for not being a virtuoso with words, I'll try to think of something better)

So where is the evidence (outside feelings as we say) for the existence of the 'spiritual', of these 'spiritual truths' using your 'spiritual senses' whatever they are other than simply yours senses?

Well, once again, you are applying the rubber to the nail, no matter how you hit it, it'll just bounce back (sorry to be annoying XD). But you can't see a microbe with a telescope and neither another planet with a microscope.
How about this: do you believe in virtue? Probably. Can you prove it? Well, I would be surprised. Sure, you can find virtuous people, but there is no material thing such as virtue. Yet, would it not still "exist" and have meaning and value even without people? You see, evidence and existence don't really mean anything in this realm.

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I don't see the point in debating with the likes of you. The starting point must be " god ", whether he/she/it actually exists and if he/she/it had a son etc etc etc ad nauseam.

Like I said, don't debate with me if you don't want to. I completely understand that .
It's just an excercise, nobody is going to hell for not participating... yet.

[Edwardo Piet]

I'm sorry to confuse you... Well, I don't think there is value in a distinction between natural and supernatural, but if I had to, I would say that we are all supernatural, believing that we are natural (uh, i think that may sound even more confusing ^^'). But I'm more comfortable with "natural". God is definitely natural. No point in adding "super" just to make it sound flashy.

well when you are talking about something that there can be no empirical evidence of the existence of...and that would be 'miraculous' and operate differently to the laws of the universe, then I would call that supernatural.

I would say "God" that can perform 'miracles' 'create the universe' and exist before then or create it at the same time as 'creating himself' I would call that all supernatural because there is no evidence of it and it certainly isn't how the natural world is understood.

So I'm just saying - what do you believe God is capable of...? What miracles, great acts, etc? And where is the evidence of 'him'/'her'/'it'? And where is the evidence of the 'miracles' or 'acts' he/she/it can do?

And where is the evidence "God" exists and that he/she/it created the universe, etc?

Finally, do you believe God is specifically a he or she? And if not, I'll just say 'it' from now on, saying all 3 is getting kind of annoying lol.

Simplified it's something along these lines: the piano is matter, the music is the spirit. But it doesn't help describing it, just like describing a song won't make you actually hear it... (but that's partly my fault for not being a virtuoso with words, I'll try to think of something better)

Where is the evidence that the 'music' is spirit? The sound is sound waves - which is SOMETHING it is matter, energy, etc - its made out of stuff (i.e,, it's material).

And as for how it 'feels good' when you listen to 'good music' or 'music you like' as far as we know all feelings come from the natural (or non-spiritual if you prefer, what can be explained normally by science, and/or hasn't been explained otherwise)...I know of no evidence of feelings coming from the something 'spiritual', it's all just matter, specifically our own biology and its interaction with the environment and others, etc, as far as I know?

All natural...um...

Now here's the thing, how are you defining 'spiritual' that cannot be encompassed by science? I mean some things haven't been yet....but as far as we know all natural things in the world can be tested naturally or scientifically...OR some things can't perhaps but then as far as we know nothing else can! The natural world (the only world we know of) is studied through the natural science - and it at least requires some kind of evidence...

As far as we know scientific empirical evidence is the way to go when it comes to dealing with reality - the natural world.

Well, once again, you are applying the rubber to the nail, no matter how you hit it, it'll just bounce back (sorry to be annoying XD). But you can't see a microbe with a telescope and neither another planet with a microscope.
How about this: do you believe in virtue? Probably. Can you prove it? Well, I would be surprised. Sure, you can find virtuous people, but there is no material thing such as virtue. Yet, would it not still "exist" and have meaning and value even without people? You see, evidence and existence don't really mean anything in this realm.

Well I don't believe in virtue (to take your example) as a 'thing' I believe that certain people, etc, are more virtuous than others and there is no 'virtue' ITSELF, just some have more of it than others...

Like it is a fact that some people are better than others, and we have empathy to understand and realize this. But that is not to say that there are absolute objective morals in the world...I mean where's the evidence of that? Who's to give it? Where are they? It's all subjective...it's just a good thing some people are more caring and a bad thing some are less - it's the way it is.

Now...what I'm wondering is...you believe in hell presumably (the thing about us going to hell, in an almost apologetic way it seems) - are you calling that natural? Because you say you don't draw a distinction between the natural and the supernatural; and you personally prefer the term "natural"?

Well where's the evidence for this hell outside a book that simply says it exists?? Circular logic as it were :p

I mean where is the black and white here? Is it all grey according to you?

Where is the contrast between the "natural" (nonspiritual), or normal and the supernatural (or spiritual if you prefer) and non-normal?

I mean the whole eternal damnation thing isn't exactly natural is it? Where's the evidence for it? The whole thing seems a bit weird to me

Where is the distinction between the normal and not so normal, the spiritual and non-spiritual here? There not being a hell because there's no evidence; and there being a hell for whatever reason you believe?

Hell just seems kind of outside the box for me! (as does heaven equally of course, I'm just using hell since you mentioned it )

So where is the distinction here? Where is the contrast?

EvF

[Tiberius]

I'm sorry to confuse you... Well, I don't think there is value in a distinction between natural and supernatural, but if I had to, I would say that we are all supernatural, believing that we are natural (uh, i think that may sound even more confusing ^^'). But I'm more comfortable with "natural". God is definitely natural. No point in adding "super" just to make it sound flashy.

You don't even know what the words "natural" and "supernatural" mean do you?

Let me explain. Something is "natural" when it abides by the laws of nature, the laws of the universe. A hot cup of water cooling is an example of something "natural".

Something is "supernatural" when it violates the laws of nature. A cup of cold water boiling in a fridge is an example of something supernatural, as are ghosts, etc. Usually when someone claims something is supernatural, they are mistaken, but on some rare occasion they open up a new realm of research and the "supernatural" claim becomes natural.

The same cannot be said for gods. Gods are by nature and definition, supernatural beings. They are said to exist outside our universe (already a supernatural thing) and yet also everywhere (also supernatural). Most are said to have omnipotence and omniscience (both supernatural). A "miracle" is a supernatural event that supposedly occurs when one of these supposed beings interferes with the universe (again, a supernatural event).

The "super" isn't there to make it look flashy, the "super" is there to distinguish what is explainable (and believable in my eyes) from what is unexplainable (unbelievable).

[g-mark]

1.

I think that Jesus' words are true and therefore try to follow them, god didn't actually taught us much directly.

2.

Sure, that's why you should be honest with yourself and not force your beliefs unto others.

3.

I don't really buy into the prophets idea... I don't think that god specifically sends humans to earth to fulfill errands... what nonsense XD .

4.

I can't say in a few sentences what makes me believe that Jesus words are true...

5.

I don't worship anything or anyone... why would god or Jesus need to be worshipped?

1. Very Interesting.

2. Why are you here then?

3. Why do you listen to his so-called words then?

4. Why?

5. Why do you follow Jesus then?

Your answers need not be long thank you.

[Kyuuketsuki]

I want you, you godforsaken Atheists, to challenge my belief. If you haven't noticed by my info on the top left corner, I am a follower of Christ; in other words, I don't have a religious affiliation. I don't need a priest to tell me what god wants to say to me - I get my info first hand

This is really a rather silly challenge ... with the exception of maths, science id the only philosophy that actually works ... if you want to remain deluded all your life, have fun, rip it up, be my (be our) guest!

Tell you what, I'll offer you a counter-challenge ... what demonstrable advantages (advantages that cannot be as or more reasonably interpreted otherwise or remain an open question) does your belief offer outside of being a comfort blanket?

Kyu

[fr0d0]

science is the only philosophy that actually works

How is science philosophy at all? Isn't that just away of saying philosophy doesn't exist? Or is it 'wooly thinking' based on known facts? Doesn't it deny thought as only thought based on hard fact is acceptable?

[Edwardo Piet]

Why would you want to accept something as true when there's no evidence that it IS? You might as well just accept anything.

Just to question you back, in case you don't mind.

EvF