A good argument for God's existence (long but worth it)

[WinterHold]

He's wrong. It's 2017. Get with the freaking program, Islam.

It's not Islam: it's Wahhabism.
Some pretty big names in science belonged to Muslims through the ages.

Atlass, in my non existent "utopia" that I am not insane to consider a possibility, religion would not exist at all. But that is not the reality our world's population of 7 billion lives in.

Yes, you have your science denying fuckface idiots and violent idiots, but so do Christians and Jews. Religion isn't going away. Islam didn't invent delusional people, neither did Christians or Jews, it is our species that values and protects what is local even when that value of that claim is wrong, or cruel. 

The best the world can do, is sure, weed out those who deny science, or promote violence justified by religion. 

If Christians and Muslims and Jews want to prove to me they are for peace, they can, I wish they would. But "peace" to most in the world is "peace" where the other is a guest or a subordinate. 

Funny you should mention the Sun rotating around the earth. There is a clock, I think in Venice Italy built several hundred years ago, displaying that same celestial meme. So stupidity isn't a patent owned by Islam.

I hope you don't view this as "too childish" or "hippie stuff", but I literally believe that peace begins from the inside out, the individual must try to kick all the aggression and bigotry from their insides; and then the 7 billion will work that utopia into existence.

If everybody just cared about themselves; and became "selfish" in a healthy way, then change will happen to the best. Imagine if an atomic weapon manufacturer thought carefully about the damage he is inflicting on himself and on his people. Maybe the weapon won't be developed in the first place that way.

If we cared about our well-being; we will know that what goes around always come back around: even physics say that, maybe that will work as a safety trigger. Just imagining the pain of others or "being in somebody's shoes" is the way to see the right path

I don't see disbelief as the way to achieve that. A person must have a code of ethics; code of "morals" if we were to say. The trial and error are the reason our world is so corrupted. Personally: I think we'll never achieve that utopia,

[Mystic]

Hmmm if you say you hear the voice of god in a religious context, people will not look weirdly, infact, look with admiration for your "faith". As long it is the god that is worshipped in the venue.

Now I know I have no voices in my head. Just my thoughts.

Except for Zuul, always yammering "please feed me!"

Sam Harris fails to see a lot. He is an idiot and should not be relied on.

[Edwardo Piet]

Hmmm if you say you hear the voice of god in a religious context, people will not look weirdly, infact, look with admiration for your "faith". As long it is the god that is worshipped in the venue.

Now I know I have no voices in my head. Just my thoughts.

Except for Zuul, always yammering "please feed me!"

One of Harris's best quotes. Good choice.

---

Sam Harris fails to see a lot. He is an idiot and should not be relied on.

There's no error in what he says there.

It's true that the president would be considered mad if the hair-dryer was added.... despite the fact it wouldn't exactly be much crazier than without the hair dryer.

---

Some pretty big names in science belonged to Muslims through the ages.

And?

[WinterHold]

---

Some pretty big names in science belonged to Muslims through the ages.

And?

---

Some pretty big names in science belonged to Muslims through the ages.

[Whateverist]

MK, you're obviously using "as" for "because" here.  But how can you expect your bald assertion that we have a value only in relationship to a perfect seer with perfect judgment to add support to anything?  This sort of "make a proof" talk is messing with your head.

Exact value and perfect perception go hand to hand. 

Exact value requiring perfect judgment is a premise here. We know it to be true because we know people's relative judgments are not what create our value.  Neither do we decide what our value is and then create it. We rather are evaluated and judged, and perceived, to have this value.

It is so manifest, so apparent, so clear, that something sees us as we are. But what is that something that creates us and sees us as we TRULY ARE. It is the perfect judge.

It is what knows our inner secret, and what is inner to that. That which creates us and maintains us and holds us by all that what we have earned.

g.i.g.o.

[Kernel Sohcahtoa]

He's wrong. It's 2017. Get with the freaking program, Islam.

It's not Islam: it's Wahhabism.
Some pretty big names in science belonged to Muslims through the ages.

Atlass, in my non existent "utopia" that I am not insane to consider a possibility, religion would not exist at all. But that is not the reality our world's population of 7 billion lives in.

Yes, you have your science denying fuckface idiots and violent idiots, but so do Christians and Jews. Religion isn't going away. Islam didn't invent delusional people, neither did Christians or Jews, it is our species that values and protects what is local even when that value of that claim is wrong, or cruel. 

The best the world can do, is sure, weed out those who deny science, or promote violence justified by religion. 

If Christians and Muslims and Jews want to prove to me they are for peace, they can, I wish they would. But "peace" to most in the world is "peace" where the other is a guest or a subordinate. 

Funny you should mention the Sun rotating around the earth. There is a clock, I think in Venice Italy built several hundred years ago, displaying that same celestial meme. So stupidity isn't a patent owned by Islam.

I hope you don't view this as "too childish" or "hippie stuff", but I literally believe that peace begins from the inside out, the individual must try to kick all the aggression and bigotry from their insides; and then the 7 billion will work that utopia into existence.

If everybody just cared about themselves; and became "selfish" in a healthy way, then change will happen to the best. Imagine if an atomic weapon manufacturer thought carefully about the damage he is inflicting on himself and on his people. Maybe the weapon won't be developed in the first place that way.

If we cared about our well-being; we will know that what goes around always come back around: even physics say that.

I don't see disbelief as the way to achieve that. A person must have a code of ethics; code of "morals" if we were to say. The trial and error are the reason our world is so corrupted. Personally: I think we'll never achieve that utopia,

With all due respect, IMO, there is no "one" way to possess a code of ethics or code of morals.  For example, there are plenty of forum members here who are quite secular and who are also quite moral/ ethical/peaceful.  Perhaps an effective starting point in promoting peace (individual, collective, etc.) is to develop the self-discipline to challenge one's preconceptions and engage difference with inquiry/curiosity.

[pocaracas]

MK, you're obviously using "as" for "because" here.  But how can you expect your bald assertion that we have a value only in relationship to a perfect seer with perfect judgment to add support to anything?  This sort of "make a proof" talk is messing with your head.

Exact value and perfect perception go hand to hand. 

Exact value requiring perfect judgment is a premise here. We know it to be true because we know people's relative judgments are not what create our value.  Neither do we decide what our value is and then create it. We rather are evaluated and judged, and perceived, to have this value.

It is so manifest, so apparent, so clear, that something sees us as we are. But what is that something that creates us and sees us as we TRULY ARE. It is the perfect judge.

It is what knows our inner secret, and what is inner to that. That which creates us and maintains us and holds us by all that what we have earned.

MK, you use the word "value" a lot, here.
What is value?

Do things have value? I'd say that somethings, yes... and somethings we don't care...
Does money have value? Very much, huh? What makes money valuable? Does it have the same value to everyone? Does it have some "exact value"?

To my kids, I am more valuable than I am to you, am I not?
Like money, each of us has a value that is different for each person evaluating us.... and we evaluate ourselves, too.
Those values are all different, and none is exact.
This is so manifest, so apparent, so clear, that we don't need anything else, other than humans, to give us value.


Why do you think that your "reasoning" has any merit?
Why do you keep coming here with these futile arguments?
Do you enjoy being told time and time again "Wrong!! Go back to the drawing board!"?
Please think about what these concepts (like value) represent, before you go off and write a near-incomprehensible wall of text that can easily be picked apart, because you're using the concepts in a woo fashion that is not what they were generated for.

[Mystic]

Exact value and perfect perception go hand to hand. 

Exact value requiring perfect judgment is a premise here. We know it to be true because we know people's relative judgments are not what create our value.  Neither do we decide what our value is and then create it. We rather are evaluated and judged, and perceived, to have this value.

It is so manifest, so apparent, so clear, that something sees us as we are. But what is that something that creates us and sees us as we TRULY ARE. It is the perfect judge.

It is what knows our inner secret, and what is inner to that. That which creates us and maintains us and holds us by all that what we have earned.

MK, you use the word "value" a lot, here.
What is value?

Do things have value? I'd say that somethings, yes... and somethings we don't care...
Does money have value? Very much, huh? What makes money valuable? Does it have the same value to everyone? Does it have some "exact value"?

To my kids, I am more valuable than I am to you, am I not?
Like money, each of us has a value that is different for each person evaluating us.... and we evaluate ourselves, too.
Those values are all different, and none is exact.
This is so manifest, so apparent, so clear, that we don't need anything else, other than humans, to give us value.


Why do you think that your "reasoning" has any merit?
Why do you keep coming here with these futile arguments?
Do you enjoy being told time and time again "Wrong!! Go back to the drawing board!"?
Please think about what these concepts (like value) represent, before you go off and write a near-incomprehensible wall of text that can easily be picked apart, because you're using the concepts in a woo fashion that is not what they were generated for.

I am talking about the exact value we have as individuals.

[WinterHold]

With all due respect, IMO, there is no "one" way to possess a code of ethics or code of morals.  For example, there are plenty of forum members here who are quite secular and who are also quite moral/ ethical/peaceful.  Perhaps an effective starting point in promoting peace (individual, collective, etc.) is to develop the self-discipline to challenge one's preconceptions and engage difference with inquiry/curiosity.

Most -if not all- agree that murder for no reason, or for a certain set of reasons is wrong.
That is in itself an example of the unified moral code that we all have.

That's why an ISIS Jihadists would be utterly alienated in these forums.
Most members see that pedophilia is wrong. Thus; we all agree on it first hand. Maybe accusations will fly at Islam in this specific example but there is always a fierce debate. Yes; paths to identify the act as wrong differs; but the conclusion must be the same: we all despise the act and feel sorry for the victim.

An outlaw is the perfect example of lack of ethics and morals; eventually they will be alienated in the middle of a different society that has a population with a unified and similar ethics and morals.

Challenging one's personal beliefs is a moral that I rarely see around my society. That's why you find me here. Members who lack this moral get usually banned.

It is a one ethical code; the paths to it might differ but eventually killing for no reason must be condemned, stealing must be condemned, hurting for no reason must be condemned...etc, or the conclusion is wrong.

[pocaracas]

MK, you use the word "value" a lot, here.
What is value?

Do things have value? I'd say that somethings, yes... and somethings we don't care...
Does money have value? Very much, huh? What makes money valuable? Does it have the same value to everyone? Does it have some "exact value"?

To my kids, I am more valuable than I am to you, am I not?
Like money, each of us has a value that is different for each person evaluating us.... and we evaluate ourselves, too.
Those values are all different, and none is exact.
This is so manifest, so apparent, so clear, that we don't need anything else, other than humans, to give us value.


Why do you think that your "reasoning" has any merit?
Why do you keep coming here with these futile arguments?
Do you enjoy being told time and time again "Wrong!! Go back to the drawing board!"?
Please think about what these concepts (like value) represent, before you go off and write a near-incomprehensible wall of text that can easily be picked apart, because you're using the concepts in a woo fashion that is not what they were generated for.

I am talking about the exact value we have as individuals.

I know what you think you're talking about.
What I ask is if that is a thing that exists as you think it does.

The way I see it, value is attributed by humans.
Think of money. What makes it valuable? Do small round metal things have any "exact value"? Or do they have the value that each person attributes to it? Does the same thing have the same monetary cost in different shops?