Thoughts on Hell?

[Kernel Sohcahtoa]

I most certainly do, just because you've never met Him doesn't mean He doesn't exist, scientist said that the coelacanth did exist any longer and yet it proved them wrong. Not only that they had been told be fisherman that they were catching from time to time, ignorant scientist wouldn't even check it out, just like the atheist here want check out the God of the Bible. You're right, "wanting something not to exist doesn't make it true. God is there and no matter how hard you try to dismiss Him He is still there.
GC

Is the part in bold a statement of conclusive knowledge, proof, and evidence?  Out of curiosity, if your statement is not solely based on conclusive evidence/knowledge/proof, then are you open to the possibility that the statement in bold may not be in strict accordance with fact? Thanks

[Whateverist]

I most certainly do, just because you've never met Him doesn't mean He doesn't exist, scientist said that the coelacanth did exist any longer and yet it proved them wrong. Not only that they had been told be fisherman that they were catching from time to time, ignorant scientist wouldn't even check it out, just like the atheist here want check out the God of the Bible. You're right, "wanting something not to exist doesn't make it true. God is there and no matter how hard you try to dismiss Him He is still there.
GC

Is the part in bold a statement of conclusive knowledge, proof, and evidence?  Out of curiosity, if your statement is not solely based on conclusive evidence/knowledge/proof, then are you open to the possibility that the statement in bold may not be in strict accordance with fact? Thanks

Oh I see what he's saying.  A fish known from the fossil record being found still living in the ocean is just exactly like a god (whatever that may be) being found in the supernatural zone (whatever that may be) .. or it would be if only we could find the fossilized remains of a god in the fossil record.

[The Valkyrie]

Thoughts on hell...

Needs air con.

Also probably has a better night life than Heaven.

[Godscreated]

To bad you had to spend so much of your time looking all that stuff up because I have no children. If I did I would as I have with myself given them a book that shows the different religions compared to Christianity.

Let me guess -- A book about other religions, from a Christian author?  No.  I prefer to get the information from the source, so that it will reflect the actual beliefs and practices of a religion rather than an outsider perspective.

Yes a Christian author and why not it is a book comparing other religions to Christianity after all. This book has only facts about each religion and was sourced from their material, Christians aren't as deceiving as you would like them to be. Lying to children and then they find out differently would only cause trouble, the Bible teaches this basic fact. 
When the child grows up and wants to research deeper into the religions of others that will be it's decision.

Children are vulnerable and should be protected from those things that can harm them, you and I see a total difference in what is harmful to children.

That's precisely why I would never expose a child to a hell-threatening religion.  I know people who are still struggling with PTSD many decades after receiving that kind of abuse from parents or church personnel.

Since I do not know these people I will have to take your word for it and if it's the truth then those people were not raised according to the scriptures. Believe me I know parents who get zealous about their children and Christianity and have heard of churches that push to hard, they do it because they believe they are right but they are not teaching according to the scriptures. I wouldn't call it abuse as you do, I believe they are sincerely afraid for their child's eternal destination and they do not trust God to help them with the child.

Jesus told His disciples when they tried to keep children from coming to Him, it would be better for a parent to tie a millstone around his neck than to keep the children from me. Not taking your child to church and thus indoctrinating her against Christianity is exactly what Christ was telling His disciples.  She most likely will never seek out God because of you and God will, even though you do not believe, hold you responsible.

No, I never said a word to her either for or  against Christianity when she was a child (although as adults we occasionally share an eye-roll when dealing with nonsense like the late Harold Camping's failed end-times predictions).

Christians that are literate of what the Bible teaches also roll their eyes at such things.
 

If anyone has a millstone around her neck, it's the grade 5 girl who called my daughter a "devil child" when she found out my daughter wasn't a Christian.  Without batting an eye my daughter responded "No, that should be 'demon child'" and terminated their friendship on the spot.

I'm sure she had to say that to a lot of children then and I think you and I both know how cruel children can be at times and they usually regret it later. You should have confronted her parents about the situation so they could have disciplined her. You on the other hand should have told your daughter that even friends say things at times they do not mean. people aren't perfect and especially children. I'm betting there was more to the situation that you may not have been told but then maybe not.

Hell is your highway you're zooming down and I promise you will find it extremely terrible.

I do not find your "promise" credible.  For that matter, I don't find you credible.  This, however, I rather enjoy:



 

 Of course you would and what might their eternal destination be. Before you go off I use to be a big fan of there's myself.

GC

[Astreja]

I wouldn't call it abuse as you do, I believe they are sincerely afraid for their child's eternal destination and they do not trust God to help them with the child.

I see it as one of the worst kinds of non-physical abuse.  The fear that it creates in the body deranges the endocrine system and can have lifelong consequences.

...I think you and I both know how cruel children can be at times and they usually regret it later. You should have confronted her parents about the situation so they could have disciplined her.

I am not a helicopter parent.  My daughter is perfectly capable of deciding who her friends are.

[pocaracas]

Let me guess, no one even blinked when you hinted (because you never told them that) that god could carry out actions in the absence of time.

 They all already understood what eternity means, even the youth of the church understand eternity, you my friend are behind the time.

GC

Most people understand our universe like a box where everything happens. And you also have space and time in there, too.
And then whatever is outside of that box is beyond the universe.

The problem is that "outside" implies space; and actions imply time. And both these implied concepts are so rooted in us that we don't think of what it means to have them missing. We totally lack any intuition as to what that means and what it entails.
I'm trying to get you to understand this... not sure I'm having much success.... but I can tell for sure that (at least) most of those in your church will be thinking in terms of the box with space and time to spare beyond the box.

[downbeatplumb]

  I most certainly do, just because you've never met Him doesn't mean He doesn't exist, scientist said that the coelacanth did exist any longer and yet it proved them wrong. Not only that they had been told be fisherman that they were catching from time to time, ignorant scientist wouldn't even check it out, just like the atheist here want check out the God of the Bible. You're right, "wanting something not to exist doesn't make it true. God is there and no matter how hard you try to dismiss Him He is still there.
GC

---

I maintain that I very much doubt you do know it.
I can say that with a certain amount of assurance because I have seen what think of as evidence for god, which amounts to you just wanting to believe really really hard.

If you have anything of worth present it for our inspection, just be aware that there is a good chance that we won't believe you.

[Angrboda]

Let me guess -- A book about other religions, from a Christian author?  No.  I prefer to get the information from the source, so that it will reflect the actual beliefs and practices of a religion rather than an outsider perspective.

Yes a Christian author and why not it is a book comparing other religions to Christianity after all. This book has only facts about each religion and was sourced from their material, Christians aren't as deceiving as you would like them to be. Lying to children and then they find out differently would only cause trouble, the Bible teaches this basic fact. 
When the child grows up and wants to research deeper into the religions of others that will be it's decision.

Yes, because we know how even-handed you and your Southern Baptist brethren are about presenting the truths of other religions.....

Hindu Prayer guide "Divali: Festival of Lights":

The SBC released 30,000 copies of the guide just before the most important Hindu festival of 1999: the three-day celebration of Divali, a.k.a. Diwali and Festival of Lights. It has 16 pages, and includes short daily prayers covering a 12 day period. "According to Louis Moore, editor of the latest publication, the language is harsher in this guide [compared to other guides] because 'There is a clearer definition that Hindus are lost.' " 1 This decision was probably made because Hinduism is a polytheistic faith, while other guides concerned monotheistic religions: Islam and Judaism.

Chandrakant Panse is a co-organizer of New England Hindus Against Religious Intolerance. About 60 people staged a peaceful march on 1999-NOV-21 outside the Beacon Hill Baptist Church on Cambridge Street in Boston, MA. They carried signs: "Respect All Religions" and "Intolerance is Un-American". Ms. Panse said: ''We're asking the Baptists to retract their malicious attacks on the Hindu religion and its people.'' The group was protesting a Hindu prayer guide distributed by the International Mission Board of the Southern Baptist Convention.  Some of the statements in the guide are:

• ''Hindus seek power and blessing through the worship of gods and goddesses and the demonic powers that lay behind them."
  
• "Hindus lack a concept of sin or personal responsibility."
  
• "...the darkness in their Hindu hearts that no lamp can dispel.''
  
• ''...demonic powers lie behind Hindu gods."
  
• "...more than 900 million people lost in the hopeless darkness of Hinduism."
  
• "Walking through the streets of India during Divali is a sobering reminder of the power of darkness that lies over this land."
  
• "Mumbai [India] is a city of spiritual darkness. Eight out of every 10 people are Hindu, slaves bound by fear and tradition to false gods."
  
• "Satan has retained his hold on Calcutta through Kali and other gods and goddesses of Hinduism. It's time for Christ's salvation to come to Calcutta."
  
• Hindus live under ''the power of Satan.''
  

The other organizer of the protest, Suresh Jain, commented that ''None of this is true. We are offended by statements in the prayer book which say the only path to salvation is to follow Jesus Christ.''

http://www.religioustolerance.org/sbc_pray2.htm

[Godscreated]

---

I am relaxed, it is you who are trying to put words in my post that are not there or even a part of what I believe. You can choose to do many things outside of God's will, it's called sin. God's divine purpose is unchangeable. There is a difference between what God's will for our life is and His divine purpose (plan). So you see I know what I believe and what I believe in this case is right.

---

I'm not trying to put words in your posts. I'm trying to show you my POV on the matter. You do realize I'm allowed to have one in a discussion, right?
And the trouble with the sentences you reply above remain, in my POV. Your god's plan is made under complete control because of his discussed omni-attributes. Yet he creates his creation willfully to divert from what he wants to create? Why the hell would he do that? If he'd created a universe in which everyone would choose not to sin, they'd have done that with as much free will as you and I have now. (Its an illusion of free will, but still.)
It does not add up bub. And you going "Nuh-uh, yeah it does!" doesn't make it so.

Of course you are, let's just forget the who said this and who said that and go on.
You seem to be having trouble understanding what God did from the beginning. God created a perfect world and in that perfect world God gave all His creations free will to choose what they wanted. Instead of saying things you want to believe read the creation story and take it for what it says, I'm not asking you to believe it just to base the discussion on how it was recorded in the Bible. Why did God create man with free will, because He wanted those He created to love Him. Forcing people to love you isn't love at all, do you try to force people to care about you, I don't I want genuine feeling toward me good or bad. If He created a world where thinking people could not choose they would have still rebelled, Lucifer and the 1/3 that rebelled did so in the presence of God. What makes it so is that God created man with free will so they could chose to love Him. You want things to be simple, without a hitch and life just ain't that way. Ask yourself this, would you want a life time partner that couldn't choose to love you, don't you think that person would be resentful if another one was more appealing. 
 

You believe omnipresence doesn't come into play because you do not understand what omnipresence is concerning God. God is omniscient because He is omnipresent. God being omnipresent means He is eternal, living unceasingly in what man refers to as the past, present and future. You see your understanding of God is in a sense backwards. God has always known everything because He has always seen everything, nothing has ever existed or was created that God didn't already know about before hand. people would like to think there lives are like a book playing out from page to page and to use that is the way it works, however with God He has seen a persons total life in an instant even before He created the universe. God's omnipresence has nothing to do with our free will. Our free will is a gift given to us so that we can choose, God just sees all we choose to do long before we do it. This doesn't mean our lives are predetermined, it they were God couldn't say that man is foolish because of some things we choose to do, He can say that because we are free to choose.
I will agree with you that God knows how to create the perfect universe because He did, that's what is described in the first two chapters of the Bible. However Adam and Eve sinned corrupting the creation, God cursed the created universe because of that sin. If there had never been any sin there would have never been a need to come to God for salvation, salvation is the freedom from sins wrath. We also wouldn't need to accept Him as our Lord, we would recognize Him as Lord.

Okay. On the bold: So since omnipresence does not give the free will, which unless I completely misunderstood you in your previous post, and since you haven't really adressed any of my reasoning on the other omni-attributes making true free will impossible with anything consistent, I'm going to see this as you not correcting me on anything. And if you don't, I'm not going to change my view.

I did correct you by explaining what omnipresence means, what you believed about it is not right. I also stated that God's omniscience was due in part to His omnipresence and thus these make Him omnipotent, I'm really confused as to how you can't see this.

On the italic: So god created a sin free world that he designed to have sin enter in (somehow that's perfect) just so he could free us from sin? He couldn't just create a world in which we would accept him as our lord? One in which the suffering and eternal damnation of most of us was unnecessary? Because that would be a better creation. And if he can't create that or didn't know how to, he ain't omnipotent and/or omniscient.

Because God is omnipresent and omniscient means he can see down through all of man's histories and view the outcome of each one, isn't this what you have been saying? And you being a mortal human can't even see what could happen to you in the next few minutes, is this a fair statement? Then how is it that you can say that there was a perfect outcome to any of the histories that you can't even see. You can't know this only God can.

Remember this, when God created man He wasn't trying to recreate himself, we are far below God and at present the angels also. God created us above the animals and other creatures on the earth, it was our responsibility to care for them and actually still is.

Now to answer your question. Yes God created a sin free universe, one in which man is allowed to choose because God wanted us to freely love Him and without free choice that's just not possible, this is what God wanted and did. Adam and Eve didn't have to sin and if they and all the rest of mankind down through eternity did not then God would have dealt with Lucifer and the other angels who rebelled and that would have been that. God however knowing that Lucifer would become jealous and rebel against who He is knew that man would fall sooner than later. God designed the plan of salvation before He ever created this world and I'm speaking of God the Son, who knew He would have to suffer for His creation to redeem us to Him. Now if there was a plan where man would have never sinned don't you think God would have created it if it allowed for His will to be done. That will being He wanted to create man free to choose to love Him. Who are we to tell our creator what He should do, He has given us life and an eternal one if we choose it.

I'm not saying God has them, He has them because He is God anything less would mean He wasn't the God He states He is.
God created the universe one way only, He didn't look down through time to see which universe would be best, that would be predetermination, He created the universe knowing man would fail, this time that God has given man is playing out through our choices, we were not created to turn out any certain way, we choose how to live. God foresaw this and made a plan to redeem as many as would accept what He did to reconcile us to Him. Our freedom of choice is extremely important to God that's why He protects us from Satan's direct influence upon us. God keeps the field level neither He nor Satan can cause us to decide to choose one way or the other.

On the bold: So he turned of his omniscience?

No, why do you keep insisting God turns own His self, He can't that would go against who He is. I'm still at a loss as to why you can not understand what God did and why He did it. It's this simple God created what was His will and man turned against their creator, causing all the problems we have today. 

On the Italic: He should forsee how it turns out. He's omniscient, right? But the fact that even one soul is lost is implying he failed at his job. He made the fucking system, dude. He is all-powerfull and all-knowing. He'd know what to say and do, what to leave behind what to inspire and to create to make sure we would ALL come to accept him. If he couldn't or didn't know how, he's not one of the omni's.
The problem remains. 

He did see how things would turn out, He was at the end of time before He created it, it is who He is in His omnipresence, eternal existing in all time past, present and future simultaneously. His omniscience let's Him know how to create all things and how they work, just look at the universe it can only be understood by an omniscient mind. what makes you think that it's God's job to save anyone, that is a mistake on your part. It is for us to come to Him in our free choice, God doesn't want those who do not want Him, this is something you need to get through your head, God will not force anyone. Those souls that will be lost is the responsibility of each individual, God's given us the way to Him, people do not need perish. No problem remains, it seems so to you because you can't grasp the concept of God's love and our relationship with Him in that love. He didn't cause us to sin we chose to sin and in that we have the responsibility to accept His salvation through Jesus. You want God to force you to love Him, so tell me just how is that even possible???

I'm not saying nor do I mean to imply you are being purposely deceitful, what I'm trying to say is you do not understand who God is, you are using a supposed logic that fits what you want to believe. What you want to believe is not how things are with God. In your first response to my post you implied we could not choose anything outside of God's plan,I take that to mean things are set and can't be changed, yet you later say that God selected one out of many choices He had, this all leads to predetermination which the Bible clearly shows us is not what God planed. His plan to over come man's fall is set and nothing can change that, Satan tried and failed. We have the freedom of choice, like I said earlier if we didn't God couldn't say that man makes foolish choices. So God knows exactly how this time He has given every man will turn out, simply because through His omnipresence He has observed it in it's entirety, every second of everyone's life.  Let me say this, God's plan is to let time go on until every man that will accept Christ as savior does, no predetermination. God knowing the fall of Lucifer and many of the angels would lead to man's fall and corrupt His perfect creation wants all His created ones to see that His love is greater than the evil brought into existence by the willful disobedience of His created ones. Then God in all His power and glory will destroy evil forever. 

On the bold. You say that as if it's a contradiction? By God's choice of creating the universe in one specific way  out of an infinite of options to him, of which he knew every detail how any of them would turn out, the act of creating that specific universe and everything and -one in it, he determined what we would choose. Even if he'd chosen a different creation, everything in that creation, to the detail, would turn out as he designed it.

As I have said God did not choose any certain universe, He created this universe and made the world we live on inhabitable for us and He made it all perfect. Man then chose to disobey God and in that sin of selfishness brought evil into this world and God cursed this world so that man would have an imperfect world to live out his days in. In man's sin he became imperfect and thus in need of redemption if He wanted to live in the perfect eternity that God has for us, this one He has chosen for those who choose to love Him and has made a place for those who do not want to love Him. How do I put this other than God did not plan a predetermined world, He's not like you that wants the easy way out of the position you have put yourself into with Him. The you in this last sentence means all of mankind not just yourself.

If he'd created the universe in such a way that everyone would come to accept him, that would have no more and no less free will than this creation. So why not create that one instead? I mean he could. He's omniscient and omnipotent, right?
On the italic. He made satan to try and fail. It's god's half-hearted pretend attempt to sabotage himself, innit?

No He couldn't have that's predetermination and God does not desire us to be controlled like that, why can't you get it that predetermination goes against God. Don't come back and say well you said he has predetermined the next creation. Yes He has and we know this and accept this, we want it.
On what authority do you have it that God created Lucifer to fail, Lucifer was the greatest angel in heaven, more powerful than all the others, Lucifer even walked in the Garden of Eden with God before his fall. also on what authority do you have it that God has ever done anything half-hearted as you suggest. His creation and the Son was the creator cost Him everything even His life as a man. Only a God who loves His creation would go through all this and if He didn't have to He would have done it differently. God looked down through time and saw that we would need a redeemer and then created us. Quite being so hard headed you seem far to intelligent to do this.

I did not dodge the conclusion, it's not correct because you do not know God and it's because you do not read the Bible with an open mind if you read it at all. It doesn't matter whether you want to read the Bible or not, to understand anything about God you have to go to the source given to us.

You would think that you would have a better reason to say I'm wrong other than 'you do not know God'. If I did know God and spowed this stuff, would it then magically become right? No. If it's wrong, it's wrong because of some other reason than my lack of knowledge on a deity. It would be an inherently inconsistent idea. Can you point out what is incoherent in my reasoning?

It's the truth, you do not know God so how do you expect to be able to describe who He is. No, you would still be wrong, the difference is you would know it. It's wrong because of your lack of knowledge of God, that lack makes it wrong, you're being a bit immature with such a statement. You're not making incoherent statements, you are making statements about God that are incorrect, there's a difference in the two.

We aren't discussing pink unicorns or any of the other false religions, we are discussing the God of the Bible and if you do not read it all you have are unfounded opinions. like I've told others I do not need to read the text of the other religions to dismiss them. I know God and that He is real and who He says He is and He has said that He doesn't lie and that there are no other gods.

Its called a metaphor. And it is an apt one, if I  says so myself.
You are just being a hypocrite here. I have no nicer way of saying it. You dismiss holy texts without reading them but say your specific holy text is correct and can't be dismissed without reading it.
Oh. And I never lie. There I said it. I must be telling the truth. After all, I don't lie. And I know I don't lie because I said I don't lie.
Also, I have 20 inch dick.

I did not know we were suppose to be having some kind of competition, I thought we were discussing some of God's attributes. Now to answer your statement, it's not a metaphor and I'm not a hypocrite. I can dismiss others religious text because I've read about their religions but, that doesn't really have anything to do with it because as I said God says there are no other gods and so the text are as false as the gods in them.
Unfortunately I'm going to disagree with you, you have lied and will again because you are not as I am not a perfect moral agent. God on the other hand being omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent is perfect and therefore can not lie, lying is outside of who He is. By the way Min will be jealous.

If you are referring to giving you book, chapter and verse I'm not going to in such a wide open discussion, it would entail far to much time and I know you want except it. That's a lot of work for me that could be better spent with someone who might actually be seeking God. On the other hand if the discussion were narrowed I would us text to support what I say.

You see I've used the Bible verses before in discussions before just to have people here tell me I'm wrong and they are the ones who refuse to open the Bible let lone read it, especially with an open mind.

You sure seem to be waisting a lot of time, regardless, on us hopeless cases. I wouldn't think the extra work would be that much more of a drain than we already are. I mean, if we truly are hopeless, why debate with us on this forum at all? Go to a fucking soup kitchen or something instead and offer the word of Jesus to some vagabond who might be interested. You could be saving souls instead of 'wasting your time' on us. Either we are a waste of time and effort, or we are not. So either you are not putting in enough effort on us, or you are putting on too much.

But hey. Its okay. If your God wanted me to believe in him, I'm sure he would have made you, and the evidence he left behind, a lot more convincing.

First of all I can't save anyone only God can. Second I'm not required to meet what you would accept as convincing. The evidence He left behind is convincing for those who want to know God and I would think it only logical that a logical minded person would want to know whether God is real or not. But then I have been known to be wrong. You may be right I might be wasting my time with the atheist on this site, but then again who really knows, not you nor I. The people I expect to reach are those who visit and never join the site, they are searching.

Good. We haven't been discussing the complete goodness of God so there isn't a need to.

So why the fuck berate me for not mentioning omnipresence because it somehow relates to our free will? Even though in this post you seem to imply it has nothing to do with it?

Why are you suddenly bent out of shape and using unproductive language? I'm not berating you as you seem to believe, what do you expect me to do lie about what I know to be the truth just to make you feel good, want happen the truth is far to important to cloud over to preserve someone's feeling, but as I said I'm not berating you.

Do you even know what you are talking about? Do you even have a clear idea of the ideas you want to present? Because it seems lik all you do is deny my ideas without any good reason and then refuse to back up yours.
If you just want to shout at and berate heathens without being willing to do any of the work, that's your right. But I'd love the courtesy of you admitting that rather than you putting up this half-hearted attempt?

I know exactly what I'm saying and have a very clear ideas of what is correct. Remember I'm the one of the two in this post who has studied the scriptures and read from publications about God that were written by men with greater knowledge than I have. I'm not refusing to back up what I state, I said that I'm not going to the scriptures or any other publication that deals with God when the discussion is as broad as this one is. If you want to narrow it down we can do so. I haven't shouted at you nor have I berated you, (unless you are calling
correcting what you are saying berating), I've not put one word in all caps and have only stated that what you believe about God is wrong. You think you can throw out opinion about God and expect me to accept that you know what you are talking about, especially when I know you do not understand God at all. You are using the same old tactic and argument other atheist use, I was hoping you might be the one who would listen but I guess you are no different than they are. You expect me to read the texts of other religions before I say anything against them, you said this above and yet when I say you need to read the Bible before you can discuss God you balk at it, that's a double standard.

You do not like that I deny all you have said in our conversation, then you need to learn the truth about God because I will always correct you or anyone else. I'm not lying to keep your feeling in tact, that would be dishonest on my part, dishonest to you, God and myself. 

]I didn't mention omnipresence because it is irrelevant to the point I'm trying to make. (See above.) I could have mentioned omnibenevolence, but it makes the entire thing less orderly and you already agree that God would prefer for everyone to come to him of his or her own 'free will'. And as you already seem to be struggling, I think it wise I didn't muddy the water here. [/hide]

I find it funny or a deflection on your part to say I'm struggling with this discussion. I'm not struggling, I have a clear understanding of what I am saying and know it to be true. I think you left out omnipresent because you do not grasp how it relates to God. Omnipresent as I said earlier means that God is eternal, He is without beginning and without end, He lives continually in the past present and future, seeing all life in it's totality in the blink of an eye. Now I'm know there are scholars that could explain it more eloquently and precisely than this but in short that is what it means as who God is. It is so important that it's hard to discuss God and not use or at least understand this about Him.

You are correct in saying this discussion is spread thin because it encompasses a large amount about God because we are working with the eternal aspects of who He is. It would be better to take each one of the three and discuss them individually, but that would be nearly impossible because they are so intertwined with each other.

 

Its not a deflection. You are either failing to understand my point or you are failing to explain why my point fails.

I understand what you are saying and I understand it's wrong, unlike you I have studied the Bible for years and have some kind of understanding of God, my studies are many times with people more knowledgeable about God than I am, I came to a much clearer understanding of God's omnipresence a while back when reading a book by a man that man read because of his understanding of God and no I do not agree with all he says just as some do not agree with me on what hell is. 
 

You say in this post that omnipresence has no effect on our free will. All I talk about is how your idea of a God doesn't seem to allow free will.
So: Lets leave it out, right? Its just muddying the water. And the fact that you are bringing in stuff that you admit yourself doesn't relate to the conversation at hand is struggling at best and actualf deflection and deception at worst. But I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here.

I brought up omnipresence in the first returned post to you and told you it was important to God's omnipotence and omniscience. I've always stated that none of God's omni attributes gives us our free will, it is God's will that we have free will, it is a part of His plan we have free will, it is what He decided that gives us our free will.  His love for us and His desire for us to love Him as He loves us gives us our free will. If this doesn't make it clear to you nothing short of God is going to convince you.
If we were to have a discussion on God's omnipotence or His omniscience we would have to bring His omnipresence into a discussion on either one, this is how important His omnipresence is.

This is an area that atheist like to push at rather hard because they know Christians can't give them the physical evidence they require from us. We can't and all the Christians I know of will tell you they can't and I never joined this site believing I could do the impossible. You see if you study the Bible you would find out that God doesn't intend for us to have such proof, we are to come to Him in faith through Christ and enter a living relationship in which He will reveal himself and leave no doubt that He is real and who He says He is. This has been my life for many years now and it is why I do not and will not budge an inch on the matter because I know God and that He is real as He promises He will do for those who will accept Christ into their lives. You will never get any physical proof from a Christian because we have a spiritual relationship with God not a physical one. This doesn't mean that God at some time for someone want give them some type of undeniable proof before they become a believer. I've never heard of it personally but who am I to say how God might do something that he wants to do.

As far as I'm concerned when one makes the claim God doesn't exist it's up to that person to prove to me that I'm wrong in my knowledge of God, seeing how I know without a doubt that God is real. 

 

You make the claim, you prove it. God is not an excemption. You being sure you are right is a shit reason for anyone to believe you are right.
We don't make a claim. We don't have to prove anything. Simple.

It is said that those who make a positive claim should bring the proof, I make the claim and admit that I can't, you make the claim that God doesn't exist (a positive claim) and all you can do is throw up I need to prove He does. The saying works for both sides, so where's your proof God doesn't exist.

I have been defending what I believe ever since I joined this site and have expressed that I can't meet the parameters of proof set forth by the atheist here. God has not told us to prove Him to anyone in a physical sense because He will prove himself to them in a spiritual way, will cause them to know He is real in the physical world. God has said that we are to defend what we believe and leave it to Him to do the proving.

Well, your God is doing a bad job at proving himself, isn't he? Its surprising seeing his omnipotence and omniscience.

Have you been actively seeking Him are you looking with an open mind and heart, if you can't say yes to these thing then God will not show Himself to you in a spiritual way, why because you can't get by the physical, you've convinced yourself He isn't worthy or is non-existent. So just exactly why should He come to you, if you do not care He will let that be your life's choice. So it's not God doing a bad job, He is doing exactly as He planned, to let you exercise your free will and then live with the decision for eternity.

You haven't shown me anything, yes you have pointed to many things that are not true and in that you believe you have proven something that isn't in the least true.
God does have a divine plan and that plan can't and will not be changed, the plan does allow for free will for us to decide where we will spend eternity. God can and does make things happen in our lives but never to the point of causing us to believe outside our freedom of choice, remember He is omnipresent and thus know how to enter history without causing a change in our free will.

 

The god you believe in is one of determinism.

A positive claim that needs proof to accompany it. I'm telling you this the only place to find the answer is in the Bible and the Bible will tell you something different than what you believe.

I'll try this one last time:
God's omnipotence allows him to create his creation in an infinite amount of ways, all with different results for the individuals inhabiting the creation based on how he creates his creation down to every tiny detail.

Another positive claim with no evidence. You do not know that the creation could be anything other than what it is, you are using a philosophy to try and rationalize an infinite God. You haven't the slightest evidence that there could have been any other creation than the one we live in. Again proof of your positive claim.

God knows how any of these infinite possibilities will turn out of all of the inhabitants, due to his omniscience. There are options in these infinite options that allow everyone to come to God. (Otherwise, he is not omnipotent.) By choosing one option out of this platera of infinite options, he chooses which individuals come into being and what they will choose. Nothing therefore can be chosen without it being Gods choice for you to choose it. After all, he could have created the universe in such a way you would come to choose the exact opposite due to the slightly different circumstances. And its not that you have choice in this one as in opposite to that alternate creation. Because they were both equally viable options out of the infinite options for God to choose from.
An omniscient, omnipotent creator God implies determinism.

Prove the above bold and then prove this, I'm interested to see how you can know there could have possibly been any other creation than the one we have and guess what you will have to deal with God's omnipresence to have any hope of proving it and when you deal with His omnipresence you will see how wrong you are.

I think we have carried this as far as we can in as much as this is too broad of a discussion, I'm interested in your responses to any part of this post especially the last part. If you want to continue a discussion after this we need to take them one at a time with God's omnipresence included in His omnipotence and omniscience.

GC

[Godscreated]

I most certainly do, just because you've never met Him doesn't mean He doesn't exist, scientist said that the coelacanth did exist any longer and yet it proved them wrong. Not only that they had been told be fisherman that they were catching from time to time, ignorant scientist wouldn't even check it out, just like the atheist here want check out the God of the Bible. You're right, "wanting something not to exist doesn't make it true. God is there and no matter how hard you try to dismiss Him He is still there.
GC

Is the part in bold a statement of conclusive knowledge, proof, and evidence?  Out of curiosity, if your statement is not solely based on conclusive evidence/knowledge/proof, then are you open to the possibility that the statement in bold may not be in strict accordance with fact? Thanks

 First I re-read my post and saw I was surely half asleep with all the wrong words in it, sorry. Yes I have the evidence, actually proof of God's existence through my relationship with Him. This proof can only come from God to those who devote themselves to Him. He promises to reveal Himself once we have accepted Jesus as our savior and Lord, the bold word here is very important in coming to knowledge of God. New and immature Christians do not seek God's promise because they either do not know to or are to lazy to serve Him as Lord, they live a life in faith and possibly belief but without the promised knowledge. I have this knowledge because I desired it and God responded in giving me what I needed, asking with a sincere heart will bring results in God's timing. Patients is a real need and virtue for Christians, we as people can be very impatient especially in this day and time. God working outside of time, that is being omnipresent will deliver when He knows it is the right time. So, yes it is through fact that I have knowledge God is real but for the non-believer what I have isn't possible for them until they commit to Jesus as savior and Lord, and as I stated there are many Christians that do not have this promised knowledge. Thanks for you polite response that you always bring to a conversation.

GC

GC

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I wouldn't call it abuse as you do, I believe they are sincerely afraid for their child's eternal destination and they do not trust God to help them with the child.

I see it as one of the worst kinds of non-physical abuse.  The fear that it creates in the body deranges the endocrine system and can have lifelong consequences.

There is a fine line between abuse and concern. I'm not saying that some parents don't cross that line but I do believe that most do not. I have seen cases where the children themselves multiply the fear within themselves and the parents coming to them to reassure them that things are alright using Bible studies to do so.

...I think you and I both know how cruel children can be at times and they usually regret it later. You should have confronted her parents about the situation so they could have disciplined her.

I am not a helicopter parent.  My daughter is perfectly capable of deciding who her friends are.

 Are you saying you are one of those who lets their unknowlegeable child grow up on their own?

GC