Still a Christian - ask me questions/tell me about yourselves

[Cyberman]

I agree that the question is meaningless. That's what this whole digression has been about. People do morally good, bad and indifferent things for all sorts of reasons, including none, to themselves as well as others. The only reason the question comes up at all is to deliver by sleight of hand the implication that JC's posse must have known he was a real person.

[Rev. Rye]

I agree that the question is meaningless. That's what this whole digression has been about. People do morally good, bad and indifferent things for all sorts of reasons, including none, to themselves as well as others. The only reason the question comes up at all is to deliver by sleight of hand the implication that JC's posse must have known he was a real person.

Or that A) He was the Son of God, and B) he was a LITERAL Son of God (bear in mind, this was actually a common phrase at the time and place when referring to someone particularly devout that didn't necessarily connote any literal divine parentage.)

[The Grand Nudger]

I agree that the question is meaningless. That's what this whole digression has been about. People do morally good, bad and indifferent things for all sorts of reasons, including none, to themselves as well as others. The only reason the question comes up at all is to deliver by sleight of hand the implication that JC's posse must have known he was a real person.

Particularly galling since JC's posse don't seem to be any more real than JC.  The stories of their deaths are grossly exaggerated.  In the popular myth these people held their ground and died for it..but we know that from the earliest days and all through the latter christian persecutions of christians the accused routinely denounced everything from jesus to their godamned mother in a bid to escape the flames..for all the good it did them.

Heroic mythmaking rarely stands up to scrutiny at any level, at least not beyond the credulous looking for reasons to believe.

[Pat Mustard]

"Why oh why would they die for a lie"

Who knows, but people clearly do.  It doesn't help that the NT is fiction,..but it doesn't matter either, with regards to answering -that- tired old chestnut.

It’s not like religions are political entities whose causes are greatly helped by martyrdom....

So much so that christan churches have gone so far as to invent and propgate fictional stories of martyrdom, for example stories of mass persecution and murder by the Roman empire, most of which are fakes (Diocletian did persecute, but aside from a few isolated cases that's it. More christians were persecuted after Rome was christianised than bbefore).

[speedyj1992]

In all honesty, I've never read what you're referring to, but I would be interested to analyze it. Is there a website I can look at this on, or a book you would recommend for my reading?

You could try the text itself: http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/josephus/ant-18.htm. Try reading chapter 3 and skipping over the TF passage, and see whether the narrative flows more naturally without it.

I'll give that a look-over, thank you.

[The Valkyrie]

Should I go for a run tonight or just chill on the couch?

[speedyj1992]

The argument in response is that 1) God did show up, and revealed Himself to many people over many years. He is not obligated to us because we have forsaken Him and often continue to do so. Plus, you can't know an infinite God all at once when you're finite. That process needs to be there. 

2) The difference is you're talking about people who came after the apostles. The apostles themselves didn't have to die for Jesus' name's sake, in theory, except that they clearly really believed the things they preached because they knew the man. Why would they die for something they didn't believe in?

1. Doubtful, that's only a claim, an anecdote. There is no convincing evidence that your, or any god, actually existed in reality. The rest of your comments are simply the fantasy of how you wish things to be. Have your god show up, then we'll talk on what it takes to "know". 

2. The people of Heavens Gate believe that they lived with their savior/god and died for him and his beliefs. They believed the things he/they preached. You response smacks of personal bias because you believe yours is the only true one. In reality yours is one of many. Yours is not special.  Yours is man made, as they all are.

I feel as if this response largely comes from a place of not seeing, not believing on the basis of not personally having a connection to God that you can see personally. While I can understand this response, how is having faith that something happened in an ancient text like the Bible different than, say for instance, believing scientific facts that you cannot personally observe (i.e. distant stars and planets, billions of tons of salt being deposited on the sea floor every year, etc.)? Because at a certain point, you accept that something is true even though you can't see it based on other things that have been proven through observation and history.

[The Grand Nudger]

The distant stars are demonstrable, you can dredge the salt up.  Trying to equate an acceptance of good science with belief in magic book is pointless. Next.

[speedyj1992]

It’s not like religions are political entities whose causes are greatly helped by martyrdom....

So much so that christan churches have gone so far as to invent and propgate fictional stories of martyrdom, for example stories of mass persecution and murder by the Roman empire, most of which are fakes (Diocletian did persecute, but aside from a few isolated cases that's it. More christians were persecuted after Rome was christianised than bbefore).

Do you live in the USA? I do, and I have a very poor sense of what it's like to be persecuted as a Christian, or to know people who are persecuted. Save for a good friend of mine, also Christian, from India, who was personally beaten and threatened for being Christian. I have also heard reports of people who have been in countries such as Romania where there was some pretty serious persecution when communism was really big. ISIS still kills Christians today. So, it happens, and if you are going to make the bold claim that the persecution you are referring to is fake, please provide some evidence.

[brewer]

1. Doubtful, that's only a claim, an anecdote. There is no convincing evidence that your, or any god, actually existed in reality. The rest of your comments are simply the fantasy of how you wish things to be. Have your god show up, then we'll talk on what it takes to "know". 

2. The people of Heavens Gate believe that they lived with their savior/god and died for him and his beliefs. They believed the things he/they preached. You response smacks of personal bias because you believe yours is the only true one. In reality yours is one of many. Yours is not special.  Yours is man made, as they all are.

I feel as if this response largely comes from a place of not seeing, not believing on the basis of not personally having a connection to God that you can see personally. While I can understand this response, how is having faith that something happened in an ancient text like the Bible different than, say for instance, believing scientific facts that you cannot personally observe (i.e. distant stars and planets, billions of tons of salt being deposited on the sea floor every year, etc.)? Because at a certain point, you accept that something is true even though you can't see it based on other things that have been proven through observation and history.

I can see distant stars and planets with my eyes and with aids. I can measure salt deposition by salinity and evaporation rate. These things are reproducible not only by me but by others. 

Please produce your god. If you can't your personal connection only means one thing, fantasy. 

Oh, and what "other things that have been proven through observation and history" are you referencing?