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RE: Charles Manson, dead at age 83
November 21, 2017 at 4:17 am
(This post was last modified: November 21, 2017 at 4:17 am by c172.)
(November 21, 2017 at 2:15 am)paulpablo Wrote: I'm sure I experienced a glitch in reality like this already happened. Was he on his deathbed before this? I was sure he already died once.
I know he was hospitalized earlier this year, and it looked to be very serious.
(November 21, 2017 at 2:15 am)paulpablo Wrote: I'm sure I experienced a glitch in reality like this already happened. Was he on his deathbed before this? I was sure he already died once.
I know he was hospitalized earlier this year, and it looked to be very serious.
"For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan
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RE: Charles Manson, dead at age 83
November 21, 2017 at 10:32 am
(November 21, 2017 at 4:15 am)Aroura Wrote: (November 21, 2017 at 1:03 am)Rev. Rye Wrote: Apparently, he was formally diagnosed with Schizophrenia, Paranoid Delusional Disorder, Antisocial Personality Disorder, and likely others. Even just the first one is a serious mental illness. Does that make him less culpable? An interesting idea to explore. Well, the presence of ASPD kind of negates the possibility that Charlie could recover from whatever fucked up his mind enough to make him the lunatic we all know and love in any meaningful way.
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RE: Charles Manson, dead at age 83
November 21, 2017 at 10:55 am
(November 21, 2017 at 2:19 am)Grandizer Wrote: (November 21, 2017 at 12:32 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Psychopathy and narcissistic peraonality disorder would be my guess. But nothing severe enough that he couldn't understand that what he was doing was wrong and be deemed innocent.
Do they really understand that what they were doing was wrong? If a person has no conscience, what will make them intuit that this and that is wrong?
(November 21, 2017 at 2:15 am)paulpablo Wrote: I'm sure I experienced a glitch in reality like this already happened. Was he on his deathbed before this? I was sure he already died once.
The Mandela Effect strikes again.
Lack of conscience/empathy doesnt mean they dont understand that what they are doing is wrong. Probably why he had his followers go murder that family at night when they couldn't be seen. Are you saying then that Manson should have been found innocent?
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
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RE: Charles Manson, dead at age 83
November 21, 2017 at 11:22 am
(November 21, 2017 at 10:55 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Lack of conscience/empathy doesnt mean they dont understand that what they are doing is wrong. Probably why he had his followers go murder that family at night when they couldn't be seen. Are you saying then that Manson should have been found innocent?
Actually, it seems that a good part of their plan was to create a false flag operation because they thought they killed Bernard "Lotsapoppa" Crowe, a drug dealer with connections to the Black Panthers (in reality, said dealer not only survived to testify against Manson, he's apparently still alive, and the thing about the Black Panthers was a colossal bluff) and decided to A) cover their own tracks, and B) start up the "Helter Skelter" scenario they thought was supposed to happen earlier in the year.
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RE: Charles Manson, dead at age 83
November 21, 2017 at 11:27 am
(November 21, 2017 at 10:55 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: (November 21, 2017 at 2:19 am)Grandizer Wrote: Do they really understand that what they were doing was wrong? If a person has no conscience, what will make them intuit that this and that is wrong?
The Mandela Effect strikes again.
Lack of conscience/empathy doesnt mean they dont understand that what they are doing is wrong. Probably why he had his followers go murder that family at night when they couldn't be seen. Are you saying then that Manson should have been found innocent?
Lack of conscience means they lack that intuition that tells them what is right and wrong. And no, legally, he wasn't innocent nor should he have been found as such. One need not be fully in control of their own actions in order to be held responsible for what they do.
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RE: Charles Manson, dead at age 83
November 21, 2017 at 11:31 am
(This post was last modified: November 21, 2017 at 11:34 am by Catholic_Lady.)
(November 21, 2017 at 11:27 am)Grandizer Wrote: (November 21, 2017 at 10:55 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Lack of conscience/empathy doesnt mean they dont understand that what they are doing is wrong. Probably why he had his followers go murder that family at night when they couldn't be seen. Are you saying then that Manson should have been found innocent?
Lack of conscience means they lack that intuition that tells them what is right and wrong. And no, legally, he wasn't innocent nor should he have been found as such. One need not be fully in control of their own actions in order to be held responsible for what they do.
But they learn it from the world, even if they don't feel a moral compass inside themselves. Clearly, an adult in the US knows it's illegal to break into someone's house and murder a pregnant woman and her husband. You'd have to be severely mentally ill or mentally handicapped to not know that.
.
I think Manson got exactly what was appropriate. Life in prison where he couldn't hurt anyone else.
(November 21, 2017 at 11:22 am)Rev. Rye Wrote: (November 21, 2017 at 10:55 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Lack of conscience/empathy doesnt mean they dont understand that what they are doing is wrong. Probably why he had his followers go murder that family at night when they couldn't be seen. Are you saying then that Manson should have been found innocent?
Actually, it seems that a good part of their plan was to create a false flag operation because they thought they killed Bernard "Lotsapoppa" Crowe, a drug dealer with connections to the Black Panthers (in reality, said dealer not only survived to testify against Manson, he's apparently still alive, and the thing about the Black Panthers was a colossal bluff) and decided to A) cover their own tracks, and B) start up the "Helter Skelter" scenario they thought was supposed to happen earlier in the year.
Looks like they were all competent enough to understand what they were doing.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
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RE: Charles Manson, dead at age 83
November 21, 2017 at 11:39 am
(November 21, 2017 at 11:31 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: (November 21, 2017 at 11:27 am)Grandizer Wrote: Lack of conscience means they lack that intuition that tells them what is right and wrong. And no, legally, he wasn't innocent nor should he have been found as such. One need not be fully in control of their own actions in order to be held responsible for what they do.
But they learn it from the world, even if they don't feel a moral compass inside themselves. Clearly, an adult in the US knows it's illegal to break into someone's house and murder a pregnant woman and her husband. You'd have to be severely mentally ill or mentally handicapped to not know that.
.
I think Manson got exactly what was appropriate. Life in prison where he couldn't hurt anyone else.
(November 21, 2017 at 11:22 am)Rev. Rye Wrote: Actually, it seems that a good part of their plan was to create a false flag operation because they thought they killed Bernard "Lotsapoppa" Crowe, a drug dealer with connections to the Black Panthers (in reality, said dealer not only survived to testify against Manson, he's apparently still alive, and the thing about the Black Panthers was a colossal bluff) and decided to A) cover their own tracks, and B) start up the "Helter Skelter" scenario they thought was supposed to happen earlier in the year.
Looks like they were all competent enough to understand what they were doing.
He absolutely belonged where he could not harm anyone, but schizophrenics cannot tell what is real from what is not, let alone right from wrong.
I don't know how crazy you think a person needs to be before they can't tell right from wrong. If that was an accurate diagnosis, he absolutely was not "at fault", even if he still needed to be held accountable for the reason of public safety.
Quote:Schizophrenia is a mental disorder characterized by abnormal social behavior and failure to understand what is real. Common symptoms include false beliefs, unclear or confused thinking, hearing voices that others do not hear, reduced social engagement and emotional expression, and a lack of motivation.
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RE: Charles Manson, dead at age 83
November 21, 2017 at 11:43 am
(This post was last modified: November 21, 2017 at 11:44 am by GrandizerII.)
(November 21, 2017 at 11:31 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: (November 21, 2017 at 11:27 am)Grandizer Wrote: Lack of conscience means they lack that intuition that tells them what is right and wrong. And no, legally, he wasn't innocent nor should he have been found as such. One need not be fully in control of their own actions in order to be held responsible for what they do.
But they learn it from the world, even if they don't feel a moral compass inside themselves. Clearly, an adult in the US knows it's illegal to break into someone's house and murder a pregnant woman and her husband. You'd have to be severely mentally ill or mentally handicapped to not know that.
Bolded mine. Exactly. Often times, though, they aren't diagnosed as such, but are purely seen as evil.
Quote:I think Manson got exactly what was appropriate. Life in prison where he couldn't hurt anyone else.
Well, yeah, for the sake of the rest of society, prison for life was the right thing (or one of the right things) to sentence him to.
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RE: Charles Manson, dead at age 83
November 21, 2017 at 11:44 am
(November 21, 2017 at 11:39 am)Aroura Wrote: (November 21, 2017 at 11:31 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: But they learn it from the world, even if they don't feel a moral compass inside themselves. Clearly, an adult in the US knows it's illegal to break into someone's house and murder a pregnant woman and her husband. You'd have to be severely mentally ill or mentally handicapped to not know that.
.
I think Manson got exactly what was appropriate. Life in prison where he couldn't hurt anyone else.
Looks like they were all competent enough to understand what they were doing.
He absolutely belonged where he could not harm anyone, but schizophrenics cannot tell what is real from what is not, let alone right from wrong.
I don't know how crazy you think a person needs to be before they can't tell right from wrong. If that was an accurate diagnosis, he absolutely was not "at fault", even if he still needed to be held accountable for the reason of public safety.
Quote:Schizophrenia is a mental disorder characterized by abnormal social behavior and failure to understand what is real. Common symptoms include false beliefs, unclear or confused thinking, hearing voices that others do not hear, reduced social engagement and emotional expression, and a lack of motivation.
If I thought he couldn't tell right from wrong, I'd say he should have gotten innocent for reason of insanity. I wouldn't think he should be in jail. His guilty sentence with life in prison was just, imo.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
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RE: Charles Manson, dead at age 83
November 21, 2017 at 11:46 am
(November 21, 2017 at 11:44 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: (November 21, 2017 at 11:39 am)Aroura Wrote: He absolutely belonged where he could not harm anyone, but schizophrenics cannot tell what is real from what is not, let alone right from wrong.
I don't know how crazy you think a person needs to be before they can't tell right from wrong. If that was an accurate diagnosis, he absolutely was not "at fault", even if he still needed to be held accountable for the reason of public safety.
If I thought he couldn't tell right from wrong, I'd say he should have gotten innocent for reason of insanity. I wouldn't think he should be in jail. His guilty sentence with life in prison was just, imo.
What, in your opinion, is the purpose of prison?
Do you think criminally insane people should free to go?
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