Religion stifles Moral Evolution

[SteveII]

Last I checked, Revelation wasn't an OT law....and "jesus" doesn;t appear to have changed his opinion on the subject since exodus.

You seem to think otherwise...maybe your morality is evolving, after all?  For clarity..is it that you disagree with your god on the subject of the existence of witches, or that you disagree with your god on how dickish we should be to them?

Oh no! With your observation that the NT still considers "magic arts" a sin --in a list that includes sexually immoral, murder, idolatry and lying, I have been enlightened! Wow. I now officially conceded that the NT commands Christians to kill witches along with...well, every other person on the planet. Good find. 

I will say you are a master of making peanut-gallery comments that have no logical connections--but probably seem compelling to those who need the echo chamber to help them feel secure in their house of cards.

[Succubus]

What is this capitalised 'Natural Law' of which you speak and where may I read up on this? Outside of theology that is.

Google is your friend:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_law

Did you read that very long and most uninformative article? 

Snip:

The natural law was inherently teleological, however, it is most assuredly not deontological. For Christians, natural law is how man manifests the divine image in his life. This mimicry of God's own life is impossible to accomplish except by means of the power of grace.

It's theology! And it doesn’t mean a fucking thing in the real world.

But for now, forget about me, you have many, many issues to contend with upthread. Address them.

---

You've obviously never heard of oxytocin. That's ok.

Put the shovel down.

[SteveII]

I think it's odd that Christians try to bring up personal responsibility, when they can't even take personal responsibility for their own bigotry and hatred.  Instead they toss it off on god.    "Oh, we don't hate gay people"! they'll say.  "We just want them to be miserable, and think they're diseased."  

On to the OT... I mean it's not like the NT outlaws slavery either.  And if the OT is supposedly a stricter form of morality, that's weird cause Rape is totally okay in the OT so long as you marry her.

Religions do eventually catch up on some of the issues.  Mainly because society forces them to, because otherwise they have a hard time converting anyone.  It's hard to say you're morally superior when you're far from it.  Currently the distance isn't quite enough to make religions leap forward and jump on the "it's okay to be gay" train.  (Though some denominations are already there.  Probably because they take the whole treating others right thing seriously.  And kudos to them for that.)  But a lot of Christians will justify it with "Not what god wants."  Which is a dangerous mindset.  If God suddenly wants you to go around and murder children, I surely hope you decide (unlike Abraham) that's not a great idea.

If a religion teaches something is wrong, then the adherents of that religion are by definition, not bigoted or hateful for adopting it. They could be, but not necessarily so. 

The OT is not a stricter form of morality--not at all. Read Matthew 5.

Give me an example how Christianity, based on the NT (and not some other agenda) has "eventually [caught] up on some of the issues". It's nice to assert these things in support of your conclusion, but they are hard to refute when they are so vague.

[The Grand Nudger]

Last I checked, Revelation wasn't an OT law....and "jesus" doesn;t appear to have changed his opinion on the subject since exodus.

You seem to think otherwise...maybe your morality is evolving, after all?  For clarity..is it that you disagree with your god on the subject of the existence of witches, or that you disagree with your god on how dickish we should be to them?

Oh no! With your observation that the NT still considers "magic arts" a sin --in a list that includes sexually immoral, murder, idolatry and lying, I have been enlightened! Wow. I now officially conceded that the NT commands Christians to kill witches along with...well, every other person on the planet. Good find. 

I will say you are a master of making peanut-gallery comments that have no logical connections--but probably seem compelling to those who need the echo chamber to help them feel secure in their house of cards.

So you do think that witchcraft exists, and is immoral..and a sin?  What is the penalty for sin, and what does the NT say will happen to those witches? Is there any specific part of the NT that countermands god's consistent appraisal of witches and specific instructions on how they are to be dealt with?

Or are you looking for an excuse to sin and ignore magic book when it inconveniences your modern, secular, moral sensibilities and less than biblically credulous idea of whether or not old hags fly the night on greased broomsticks?

Your frustration seems to be misplaced, aimed at me. I'm not the one that told you there were witches, that witches should be killed, that witchcraft was immoral, and sinful, and that they would be left out to the ravages of the endtimes come that glorious day. That'd be your god. So..take it up with him, next time you two have a little chat? He's either right about all of that..or he's making you seem like a fool.

[SteveII]

So I guess you're not ever going to address my post where I responded to you about the NT stuff that I found. Nice dodge there Steve.

Dodge? How was that when I predicted with absolute precision what your objection was before you even made it? For reference I said: 

(please don't quote anything from Matthew 5. In 2000 years, ONLY atheist with an internet connection think this applies).

[Succubus]

I think it's odd that Christians try to bring up personal responsibility, when they can't even take personal responsibility for their own bigotry and hatred.  Instead they toss it off on god.    "Oh, we don't hate gay people"! they'll say.  "We just want them to be miserable, and think they're diseased."  

On to the OT... I mean it's not like the NT outlaws slavery either.  And if the OT is supposedly a stricter form of morality, that's weird cause Rape is totally okay in the OT so long as you marry her.

Religions do eventually catch up on some of the issues.  Mainly because society forces them to, because otherwise they have a hard time converting anyone.  It's hard to say you're morally superior when you're far from it.  Currently the distance isn't quite enough to make religions leap forward and jump on the "it's okay to be gay" train.  (Though some denominations are already there.  Probably because they take the whole treating others right thing seriously.  And kudos to them for that.)  But a lot of Christians will justify it with "Not what god wants."  Which is a dangerous mindset.  If God suddenly wants you to go around and murder children, I surely hope you decide (unlike Abraham) that's not a great idea.

It's deontological ethics apparently. And no, I don't have the remotest fucking idea what that means.

[Angrboda]

What is this capitalised 'Natural Law' of which you speak and where may I read up on this? Outside of theology that is.

Google is your friend:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_law

I'm wondering something that perhaps you can help me with. Why did "Natural Law" take heterosexual relationships as the standard in deciding what the purpose of relationships was instead of using homosexual relationships as the standard of what the "right and true" purpose of sex is?

[Catholic_Lady]

Google is your friend:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_law

I'm wondering something that perhaps you can help me with. Why did "Natural Law" take heterosexual relationships as the standard in deciding what the purpose of relationships was instead of using homosexual relationships as the standard of what the "right and true" purpose of sex is?

Our bodies as male and female are geared towards coming together for procreation. Sex is the whole reason we evolved to have penises and vaginas. Saying that homosexual sex is actually the standard makes no sense at all.

[brewer]

Um...god was responsible for that culture.  Were the Jews not living in a theocracy?  The "cultural context" argument makes absolutely no sense, Steve.

Isn't relevant to my point. The subject is morality. It was suggested that a Christian's morality comes from the OT. That is simply wrong. Believe it or not, NT morality is a higher standard even as it has less specific do's and don'ts. 

I was interested to hear the answer to my questions in the second point--which is very relevant to the title and the OP. What do you think?

Are Lutherans not christians? I got all kinds of OT morality taught to me in my short 8 years there. 

Oh, wait, I forgot. You're one of those "special" kind of christians.

[SteveII]

Oh no! With your observation that the NT still considers "magic arts" a sin --in a list that includes sexually immoral, murder, idolatry and lying, I have been enlightened! Wow. I now officially conceded that the NT commands Christians to kill witches along with...well, every other person on the planet. Good find. 

I will say you are a master of making peanut-gallery comments that have no logical connections--but probably seem compelling to those who need the echo chamber to help them feel secure in their house of cards.

So you do think that witchcraft exists, and is immoral..and a sin?  What is the penalty for sin, and what does the NT say will happen to those witches?  Is there any specific part of the NT that countermands it;s consistent appraisal of witches and how they are to be dealt with?

Or are you looking for an excuse to sin and ignore magic book when it inconveniences your modern, secular, moral sensibilities and less than biblically credulous idea of whether or not old hags fly the night on greased broomsticks?

Does the NT distinguish between sins? The entire message of the NT is predicated on everyone sinning and bound for the same judgement. How is isolating one have any additional meaning? 

Galatians 6:1-6
1 Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted. 2 Carry each other’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ. 3 If anyone thinks they are something when they are not, they deceive themselves. 4 Each one should test their own actions. Then they can take pride in themselves alone, without comparing themselves to someone else, 5 for each one should carry their own load. 6 Nevertheless, the one who receives instruction in the word should share all good things with their instructor.

Romans 2:1-3
1 You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2 Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3 So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment?

For 35 more references on judging: https://www.biblestudytools.com/topical-...n-judging/