Men's Rights Movement

[Edwardo Piet]

Cry me a river.

Hate that expression.

[GrandizerII]

Seems like thats your problem. Where did Thena argue about oppression in the sense youre thinking of? You still have privileges she doesnt get anyway.

Cry me a river. I grew up in a home that didn't even have a bathroom in it. But you're right. I had the privileges of being smart and persistent. Now I live in a home with 2 bathrooms.

Lol, you obviously dont have a clue.

[CapnAwesome]

Hey Tibs...Did you stretch before doing those gymnastics? LOL

Which part or my argument do you disagree with exactly? The alt-right is an ideology, it's a collection of multiple political viewpoints, it's not just anti-feminist. They are also pro-capitalist. Are all pro-capitalists therefore supporters of the alt-right, because that's what you are arguing, that supporting part of an ideology means you support the entire ideology. That's bullshit.

Besides, as I've made clear, I'm not an anti-feminist.

Lol, you just operate with conviently different and flexible definitions of feminism. Yeah, you're a feminst....if it were 1960. But no women's studies professor or well educated feminist today accepts your definition, especially the egalitarian under the law and then that's that approach. A group is self defined, not defined by someone clearly hostile to it's fringe movement (whoever they might be, it's not really clear.)

[Anomalocaris]

Seems like thats your problem. Where did Thena argue about oppression in the sense youre thinking of? You still have privileges she doesnt get anyway.

Cry me a river. I grew up in a home that didn't even have a bathroom in it. But you're right. I had the privileges of being smart and persistent. Now I live in a home with 2 bathrooms.

You are still disadvantaged because it takes 20 bathrooms to handle your shit.

[CapnAwesome]

I've never seen Tib lose his cool, and while I don't always agree with him, his points are always well thought out and objective. Calling him an alt right sympathizer and saying things like "someone like you" just makes me roll my eyes and feel tempted to disregard whatever else is being said.
....
Have you seen the doc? I used to think the same thing about "men's rights." While I certainly wouldn't call myself MRA, I see now that men do have their own set of disadvantages.

He literally called Thena a dipshit in like, his second or third interaction with her in this thread. And finished most of his arguements with some kind of personal attack. I know it's atheist forums, and the standard for civility is not exactly a high one, but that should qualify.

I probably haven't seen that doc, but I have seen lots made by MRAs. I read a lot of opinions from people I don't agree with. Basically I've covered most of my objections. My main one is a little more abstract actually, I am a big believer in manliness as a virtue, and I really see none of it coming from these guys. Complaining incesently is unmanly. Complaining when you have almost every position of power in the world is unmanly. The whole movement detracts from my personal esthetic of how a man should behave in the world. With honor and dignity and self sufficiency. A real man would never complain that women are oppressing him! If I think of a manly man, it's like a woodsman, or lumberjack. And that guy is never going to whine about being oppressed by feminism.

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Seems like thats your problem. Where did Thena argue about oppression in the sense youre thinking of? You still have privileges she doesnt get anyway.

Cry me a river. I grew up in a home that didn't even have a bathroom in it. But you're right. I had the privileges of being smart and persistent. Now I live in a home with 2 bathrooms.

What do you need two bathrooms for?

[Thumpalumpacus]

There's a reason why the terms de jure and de facto were imported into our language, and that's because the existence of the two separate states of affairs is obvious in most cases -- especially in our own society. It's the same reason the 1964 CRA didn't eliminate racism (which is simply the belief in inequality) even though it made all Americans legally equal.

The two are linked though. Equality under the law doesn't usually come about unless society's views are changing, and at the same time, societal views can be changed by new laws. Gay Marriage is a good example of this.

Being linked and being the same thing are two different things. No one said the one doesn't affect the other. The goalposts are moving here, after the kick is in the air.

I'm pointing out that they cannot reasonably be argued to be the same thing, which is what you wrote originally.

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I've never seen Tib lose his cool, and while I don't always agree with him, his points are always well thought out and objective.

To be fair, he kinda blew a gasket earlier in this thread, to judge from his unusual use of intemperate language.

Calling him an alt right sympathizer and saying things like "someone like you" just makes me roll my eyes and feel tempted to disregard whatever else is being said.

I once wore a signature under my posts from Frank Herbert which seems apt here: Those who see only what they wish are doomed to rot in the stink of their own perceptions.

* * * * * * * *

Oh, and just in time to reinforce that point:

I don't take seriously pretty much anyone living in a Western liberal democracy who cries about being oppressed.

You have the luxury of not suffering it. Of course you need not recognize it.

Are entire groups of people seriously being oppressed by our society? How so?

Are you so naive you think the society is "post-racial"? You do realize that gays are still forced to level lawsuits in order to ensure that that vaunted legal equality you and Tibs seem to hang your hats on is enforced in reality?

Hey, words matter, words are important, but what's really important is reality. And the reality is that there are major differences in the way people are treated in this country on the basis of their ethnicity, race, religion, and sexuality. And those differences result in "prolonged unjust treatment", which is one of the denotations of "oppression".

You can see what you want, and ignore what you want ... whatever. But when you can't see the elephant in the room, that impugns your ... er ... credibility.

[Catholic_Lady]

I've never seen Tib lose his cool, and while I don't always agree with him, his points are always well thought out and objective. Calling him an alt right sympathizer and saying things like "someone like you" just makes me roll my eyes and feel tempted to disregard whatever else is being said.
....
Have you seen the doc? I used to think the same thing about "men's rights." While I certainly wouldn't call myself MRA, I see now that men do have their own set of disadvantages.

He literally called Thena a dipshit in like, his second or third interaction with her in this thread. And finished most of his arguements with some kind of personal attack. I know it's atheist forums, and the standard for civility is not exactly a high one, but that should qualify.

I probably haven't seen that doc, but I have seen lots made by MRAs. I read a lot of opinions from people I don't agree with. Basically I've covered most of my objections. My main one is a little more abstract actually, I am a big believer in manliness as a virtue, and I really see none of it coming from these guys. Complaining incesently is unmanly. Complaining when you have almost every position of power in the world is unmanly. The whole movement detracts from my personal esthetic of how a man should behave in the world. With honor and dignity and self sufficiency. A real man would never complain that women are oppressing him! If I think of a manly man, it's like a woodsman, or lumberjack. And that guy is never going to whine about being oppressed by feminism.

To be fair, his dipshit comment came as a response to getting called one. His name wasn't used, but it seems he was exactly who was being talked about. Because it was referring to people who use the word egalitarianism, and he was the only one who had. It came off as a passive agressive jab at him personally. Responding to being passive aggressively called dipshit by calling that person dipshit in return hardly warrants being accused of being an alt right sympathizer.

But anyway, I don't want to create a further tangent out of this. I'll let Tib speak for himself from this point.

....

Second paragraph:

Ok, I actually do like what you're saying here and my husband said a similar thing when he watched with me. I agree with you. If I met a guy who talked about men's rights, I'd find it extremely unattractive and unmanly. But as for the points themselves... well, i can stand behind many of the points raised. Men do have certain disadvantages and im not going to deny that just because it sounds unattractive coming from a man.

[Whateverist]

Oh lord how we suffer .. all that bacon winning, pissing contests and morning sickness.

[Catholic_Lady]

Cry me a river. I grew up in a home that didn't even have a bathroom in it. But you're right. I had the privileges of being smart and persistent. Now I live in a home with 2 bathrooms.

Lol, you obviously dont have a clue.

He doesn't have a clue about what? Do you think someone who is born into poverty and a broken family isn't disadvantaged so long as they are white and male?

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Oh lord how we suffer .. all that bacon winning, pissing contests and morning sickness.

Yes, but you guys are the ones who go to war and die. You make up the majority of police officers and fire fighters... putting your lives on the line for us. You're the construction workers and coal miners... all those hazardous, dangerous jobs, are overwhelmingly taken by men. (Ironically some feminists will complain about there not being more women CEO's or women politicians. But not a peep from them about there not being enough women coal miners, and theyd probably object to women being drafted for war.)

And to be clear, I appreciate a man not whining about taking on those dangerous jobs. But I also think it's important for us women to acknowledge and appreciate the contribution men make to society by doing so. I don't like the dismissal of "Oh, men have it so easy... men don't have to do anything, women get the crappy deal of everything..."

[CapnAwesome]

He literally called Thena a dipshit in like, his second or third interaction with her in this thread. And finished most of his arguements with some kind of personal attack. I know it's atheist forums, and the standard for civility is not exactly a high one, but that should qualify.

I probably haven't seen that doc, but I have seen lots made by MRAs. I read a lot of opinions from people I don't agree with. Basically I've covered most of my objections. My main one is a little more abstract actually, I am a big believer in manliness as a virtue, and I really see none of it coming from these guys. Complaining incesently is unmanly. Complaining when you have almost every position of power in the world is unmanly. The whole movement detracts from my personal esthetic of how a man should behave in the world. With honor and dignity and self sufficiency. A real man would never complain that women are oppressing him! If I think of a manly man, it's like a woodsman, or lumberjack. And that guy is never going to whine about being oppressed by feminism.

To be fair, his dipshit comment came as a response to getting called one. His name wasn't used, but it seems he was exactly who was being talked about. Because it was referring to people who use the word egalitarianism, and he was the only one who had. It came off as a passive agressive jab at him personally. Responding to being passive aggressively called dipshit by calling that person dipshit in return hardly warrants being accused of being an alt right sympathizer.

But anyway, I don't want to create a further tangent out of this. I'll let Tib speak for himself from this point.

....

Second paragraph:

Ok, I actually do like what you're saying here and my husband said a similar thing when he watched with me. I agree with you. If I met a guy who talked about men's rights, I'd find it extremely unattractive and unmanly. But as for the points themselves... well, i can stand behind many of the points raised. Men do have certain disadvantages and im not going to deny that just because it sounds unattractive coming from a man.

To be fair, Thena was referring to a specific argument and Tibs apparently took offense at it (and called her a dipshit.) But all of that doesn't matter, because you said you never saw him lose his cool in the entire time you've been here! Not even true if you were just talking about this thread. Besides, him and Shell like to play good cop/bad cop.

Mostly though I like Tibs and im not that far from him on the ideological scale either and you know that I like you. I just thought it was a funny thing to say, given the context of this thread.

This place will for sure warp ones idea of what a calm and rational person is though. Lol.

Other then that I think I've exhausted my thoughts on MRAs, so Captain Awesome out!