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(December 25, 2017 at 8:19 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: When I was in high school and we were all getting counseled on choosing a career path for college, I never once felt any pressure to do anything or not do anything in particular. If I had wanted to be a surgeon, there wouldn't have been a single person trying to stop me. Much the opposite actually, I think people would have highly encouraged it.
This was definitely the case with me, growing up in the 60s-70s. I think this is a good example of social progress. I had more than one person tell me, no lie, that I should not go to college, that I was taking a seat away from a man, and that I would just end up having kids and staying home anyway, so it was a waste of time and money. I was steered toward "Secretary school" and more female-related jobs, even though it was always clear to me and everyone around me that I wanted to pursue veterinary medicine.
Fortunately, I was aware of how ludicrous that was, but not all girls my age were.
Unfortunately, still happens in this day and age. My sister is the latest target of "go get married to a nice man and have a family, forget college and all that" mentality. And if it werent for me backing her up, shed still have an adult curfew imposed upon her even though this isnt the case for any of my brothers who still live with their parents.
December 25, 2017 at 9:26 pm (This post was last modified: December 25, 2017 at 9:34 pm by Amarok.)
(December 25, 2017 at 9:14 pm)paulpablo Wrote:
(December 25, 2017 at 8:07 pm)Tizheruk Wrote: 1. It's not mind control it's simply altering culture . Just like every other civil rights movement . You can pass all the laws you want . If the culture remains unchanged no progress will be made . And this has fuck all to do with tastes .
2. You confuse patriarchy with men . Patriarchy is not a evil group of men who are oppressing women. It's a cultural idea(often held by men and women ) that locks woman and men into a certain social context . Often to the detriment of both genders.
3. There may be 00000000000'1 percent of feminist who object to women being house wives .But it's not mainstream position by any stretch . And i point out there are more then enough MRA's who don't believe men should be stay at home dad's and will call them "Cucks" or "Manginia's " if they choose it .
4. As for this strawman of "radical feminists " it's just that a strawman . Woman 2 is figment of your imagination . And funny enough sounds a lot more like a typical poster at a AVFM just reverse the genders and the politics.
The life choices argument does not work . As i have said . Via the notion of cultural pressure in a broad social context . (Please note i'm not saying men are oppressing women neither are most mainstream modern feminists . Most men and women have no clue their in this dance and both are being hurt by it.)
Sorry to Strike and Paul if my tone seems hostile . It's nothing personal . Just a subject i have been deeply involved in both professionally and personally .
I don't take anything you've said personal.
My argument isn't that there is no involvement in cultural pressure in relation to choices.
But it's also that men and women do have different innate behavioral tendencies which would still result in different job choices. It's true that men and women exhibit different tendencies in a lot of areas such as violence, risk taking, becoming obsessive over different types of things in different ways, different levels of autism.
Going back to music production again, the higher rate of autism might account for the higher rate of males wanting to sit behind a computer staying awake for days obsessively looking over music related things such as samples and synths. But I do think part of the choice for men to do that is also cultural.
This isn't an argument about any particular job role or CEO statistics or to suggest sexism doesn't exist or anything of that kind of nature.
It's just an observation, and scientifically backed up, that the contribution of biology to the differences between males and females in terms of behavior isn't 0.
Not being 0 does not mean not being a overwhelmingly dominant factor oh and their is the notion of how those mental differences effect things like reaction to stereotypes and social pressure . As for science their is plenty to back my point .
(December 25, 2017 at 8:19 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: When I was in high school and we were all getting counseled on choosing a career path for college, I never once felt any pressure to do anything or not do anything in particular. If I had wanted to be a surgeon, there wouldn't have been a single person trying to stop me. Much the opposite actually, I think people would have highly encouraged it.
This was definitely the case with me, growing up in the 60s-70s. I think this is a good example of social progress. I had more than one person tell me, no lie, that I should not go to college, that I was taking a seat away from a man, and that I would just end up having kids and staying home anyway, so it was a waste of time and money. I was steered toward "Secretary school" and more female-related jobs, even though it was always clear to me and everyone around me that I wanted to pursue veterinary medicine.
Fortunately, I was aware of how ludicrous that was, but not all girls my age were.
Ok that is discrimination, glad it isn't like that anymore.
December 25, 2017 at 9:41 pm (This post was last modified: December 25, 2017 at 9:42 pm by Amarok.)
Quote:When I was in high school and we were all getting counseled on choosing a career path for college, I never once felt any pressure to do anything or not do anything in particular. If I had wanted to be a surgeon, there wouldn't have been a single person trying to stop me. Much the opposite actually, I think people would have highly encouraged it.
I'm talking about overarching social trends and cultural norms .Not individual cases . I'm a male i have never faced some of the social pressures associated with men . It does not mean they don't exist. Need i also point out this need not always be a conscience notion of stopping someone . But an undertone within a culture .So this attempt at anecdotal evidence does not refute my point .
(December 25, 2017 at 9:33 pm)SaStrike Wrote:
(December 25, 2017 at 9:15 pm)Mermaid Wrote: This was definitely the case with me, growing up in the 60s-70s. I think this is a good example of social progress. I had more than one person tell me, no lie, that I should not go to college, that I was taking a seat away from a man, and that I would just end up having kids and staying home anyway, so it was a waste of time and money. I was steered toward "Secretary school" and more female-related jobs, even though it was always clear to me and everyone around me that I wanted to pursue veterinary medicine.
Fortunately, I was aware of how ludicrous that was, but not all girls my age were.
Ok that is discrimination, glad it isn't like that anymore.
Depends really
Seek strength, not to be greater than my brother, but to fight my greatest enemy -- myself.
(December 25, 2017 at 6:33 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Nursing is hardly a "low-status" job. It's difficult and thankless work, but it carries respect and salary here.
My partner is a nurse, and I have nothing but respect for what they do. It is, however, considered low status compared to other jobs in the field. This isnt just me saying it.
And they get underpaid here.
Sure, in the field they get the shit end of the stick. I suppose that not being in the medical field, I hold them in high esteem for their labors. Most people I've talked with about it do, too.
(December 25, 2017 at 8:42 pm)Tizheruk Wrote: Examples of patriarchies (as described in context of feminism ) harm to men .
1. The presumption of male disposability in war . Traditional masculine values push the idea men need to be warriors or hunters and in that high risk role they will be viewed as inherently expensable .
2. Male suicide . The idea men need to be stoic and never vulnerable and are shamed if they do .
3. It shames men who would rather be home makers then bread winners .
4. It pressures men to always attempt to overachieve to maintain a cultural masculine image . Often leading to drug addiction, alcoholism, suicide , And home pressures .
5. The idea of domestic violence being purely male . As men are viewed as stronger thus the offender . Or the cultural shamed into not being vulnerable .
6. Also of course prison. Men once again are viewed as stronger and thus more dangerous
7. Homelessness . Again men are not suppose to be vulnerable
And i can point out plenty more . As a feminist i oppose these and the system that maintains them . But i point out some of the very MRA's who bring these issues up. shame men who act vulnerable or ask for help or don't live up to the masculine image. while there are real groups who encourage men to break these restraints.
(December 25, 2017 at 6:33 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Nursing is hardly a "low-status" job. It's difficult and thankless work, but it carries respect and salary here.
But compared to a Doctor or a CEO it is.
I respect a nurse more than a CEO, myself. I wonder what a poll would show about that?
December 26, 2017 at 12:47 am (This post was last modified: December 26, 2017 at 1:28 am by Amarok.)
(December 26, 2017 at 12:08 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:
(December 25, 2017 at 6:41 pm)Tizheruk Wrote: But compared to a Doctor or a CEO it is.
I respect a nurse more than a CEO, myself. I wonder what a poll would show about that?
I my point was generally more about societal influence . Not general feelings of approval . I don't imagine CEO's would rank very high in that compared to nurses .
Seek strength, not to be greater than my brother, but to fight my greatest enemy -- myself.
Nurses are actually very much underpaid but they're such awesome people and it's such a great profession helping patients, way under appreciated too. We actually had a recent event when nurses were protesting over their small pay, they all went on strike and finally our government(communist) ordered to almost double their salary. Now nurses are finally getting the recognition they deserve. I myself obviously think highly of them, they always take good care of me. 😄
