Men's Rights Movement

[GrandizerII]

After some Googling, it seems like you are referring to Julie Bindel. Yeah, I can see why some would consider her nuts, but it doesn't seem like feminists are generally in favor of her more controversial/disturbing views, which makes me happy. That said, she has done a lot of good work for women, and I will not disregard her achievements just because of those views.

So we have feminist individuals who espouse extremist views about men. Do we have a somewhat organized online group of such feminists? Or is it just individuals here and there? I really would like to visit one, just so I can compare them in terms of extremity of views to MRA groups (like the Red Pill) and see if they are so abundant that they form a significant part of feminism.

Not sure about online groups of feminists tbf , I don't give mind to these things anymore, it's boring for me now. But one thing I can say is the power of mra about starts and stops within a few internet sites but the power of feminists extend up to the freaking UN, someone said that it was "laughable" that feminists had more power than mra, that is almost too ridiculous. Emma freaking Watson talked for feminism in the UN!!! The most power display I've seen from mra was in a few youtube videos lmao... The difference in say reach, support, political power, etc etc etc all incredible is in favor of feminism that it is not even comparable(they've probably turned it into a business and profiting heavily from it by now) . All that aside, if you really want a hands on experience with a feminist group you're much better off asking someone that actually keeps in touch with these things.

I thought Emma Watson's speech was amazing. Thanks for responding either way.

[ErGingerbreadMandude]

Lol! you actually listened to it?! From what I heard that is where the whole #heforshe hashtag came from, the whole thing sounded very much like top level cringe to me xD yeah, and also, the very fact that they could even afford Emma Watson to speak on behalf of them is testament to the amount of money and power that is backing feminists. I'm pretty sure if they wanted to, they could squash all the mra sites and stuff in 2 days but they don't do it because while mras are talking against feminism...They're still talking about it and.. as they say...no publicity is bad publicity...lol 😂

[Catholic_Lady]

My bold

From what i understand it's because she now advocates both men's and women's issues, rather than just focusing on one side of the fence. She dropped the title of feminism for a more general form of gender equality.

That's what feminism generally is. Gender equality. The Red Pill guys don't seem to give two shits about advancing men's rights, they just want to have the "right" to be misogynists without shame.

She'd prefer to be an advocate for women's issues and men's issues without taking on the title of either feminist or MRA. Is that allowed? I'm not sure why you seem bothered by this. She supports women's issues. Why do you care whether or not she chooses to label herself feminist?

Ill tell you what. If you disagree with or have a problem with anything she said on her ted talk (besides her choosing not to use the label feminist for herself I guess), please let us know what that is so we can talk about it rather than talking about random anonymous people on reddit. If you don't disagree with anything she says, then it seems you and I have nothing to argue about here.

[GrandizerII]

That's what feminism generally is. Gender equality. The Red Pill guys don't seem to give two shits about advancing men's rights, they just want to have the "right" to be misogynists without shame.

She'd prefer to be an advocate for women's issues and men's issues without taking on the title of either feminist or MRA. Is that allowed? I'm not sure why you seem bothered by this. She supports women's issues. Why do you care whether or not she chooses to label herself feminist?

Ill tell you what. If you disagree with or have a problem with anything she said on her ted talk (besides her choosing not to use the label feminist for herself I guess), please let us know what that is so we can talk about it rather than talking about random anonymous people on reddit. If you don't disagree with anything she says, then it seems you and I have nothing to argue about here.

I disagree with discarding the label "feminist" because that is going in accordance with what misogynistic anti-feminist assholes desire. They want women to see feminism as a bad thing because it means that if you're willing to let go of the label itself, you're more willing to agree that male privilege is not really a thing, that there is no such thing as patriarchy or rape culture, that men don't have to make any effort to better themselves in their treatment of women, that men only can continue to be in dominant positions as enabled by traditional expectations. I want women to be enabled to think they are just as good as men, that they can be assertive and even aggressive without being called bitches while men continue to get away with being aggressive, that they can be free to pursue even the really high status positions without people discouraging them from doing so or putting them down, that they can decide for themselves how to live their lives without people dictating for them. And I want men to be able to say to themselves that it's ok to seek help, that it's not "unmanly" to do so, and that the way to get help is to cooperate with feminist women (not do a kneejerk backlash movement against them).

Getting rid of the label is more than just getting rid of the label. It's saying "fuck you" to women's rights.

[Catholic_Lady]

Im a bit skeptical that you listened to her talk then, because she specifically said there is nothing wrong with feminism, only that she chooses not to use that label on herself.

Other than your hang up with labels, do you disagree with any of the actual principles she addressed?

[Shell B]

^^^

I know, you mindlessly agree with strawmen arguments.

It's not a strawman unless you can prove it is a strawman. Your posts on the topic prove my point, but anyway. https://www.reddit.com/r/Feminism/ You'll find plenty of anti-male sentiment there. You'll have to do the looking yourself, but I found at least three on the front page.

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I think, for the most part, people are saying they find feminism by the definition you all seem to favor fine. A lot of us also find that feminism in that context is useful because women aren't quite equal, and neither are men. The only issue here seems to be that some people don't want to call themselves feminists because there isn't a core definition for the term, which I said probably around 40 pages ago. Unless anyone has a problem with that specific statement and can give a good reason for it, there doesn't seem to be anything to debate.

Thump, I didn't suggest that MRA and feminism are equal movements. Sure, one is probably needed more than the other. That doesn't mean that some men don't have legitimate complaints which is basically all I've been trying to say.

[Tiberius]

Bullshit. You don’t know my beliefs, don’t suppose to know them for the sake of argument. I don’t believe that equality under the law is all that matters. Clearly laws don’t directly stamp out sexism, attitudes themselves need to change.

As for definitions, were you here earlier in the thread where I linked to a bunch of them? Feminism itself isn’t one thing, it’s fractured into multiple sub-groups, some of which have real disagreements with each other.

So sure, feminists are self defined, but which type is important if you want to have a discussion about it.

Lol, if I don't know your beliefs, who's fault is that? Express them more clearly. I can only go off of what you type here.

But Ive been on these forums for what? 5 years. I'd say I know more about your beliefs then 90% of the people I know in real life.

Well, it's your fault if you don't know them and decide to make assumptions about them rather than flat out asking me. As for going off what I type here, you clearly didn't, seeing as I'd already stated I agreed with New Age feminists on matters of sex. I don't see how you can state that I'm a 1960's feminist when I support positions that New Age feminists hold. In any case, the topic here was men's rights, not feminism. My views on men's rights don't affect my views on feminism, the two are related but distinct things.

I'm sure you like to think you know more about my beliefs than 90% of the people you know in real life, but based on your post here alone, you still know very little.

[Edwardo Piet]

I agree with Shell B. Despite the sort of characters who might get involved in such efforts, there is nothing wrong with MRAs in principle. Every group has the right to advocate for its own rights in society.

Of course. That doesn't, however, mean that every cause is equal. Given the length and breadth of male social dominance, there seems to be a big mote/beam factor not being considered by MRA groups.

I agree with Thump.

And I'll just add that: IMO, despite the fact that there's nothing wrong with supporting the rights of men in principle, because it's indeed a truism that everyone deserves equal rights... it certainly is about priorities. And a men's rights group is as silly as a White Lives Matter movement.

Some things are true but so obvious they aren't worth uttering. Like, when Kernel writes his posts about complex mathematics... if I quoted him to say "I just thought you'd like to know that it's certainly true that two plus two equals four as well. Don't forget that." it would of course be a joke because some things are true but so obvious they are pointless stating or arguing for.

Such is the case with: "Men's rights are important." and "White people matter" too... obviously these things are true but they are pointless talking about.

[Amarok]

If you're going to say anything negative by a feminist is taken out of context, an honest conversation about this isn't possible. If you're going to say every single MRA is a monster, an honest conversation isn't possible.

There is no conversation to be had with the MRA . Best avoid them and look for groups that actually will solve the problem.

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If that is her stance i agree. If you found  Redpill in anyway impressive .

I'm not sure what you mean by impressive. What I think is exactly what I said in the OP: it raised some valid points I had not previously considered.

Among those are men getting screwed in child custody courts, getting more prison time and more death penalties for the same crimes, being more likely to be wrongfully convicted of a crime, not having much funding/awareness for prostate cancer, etc. Those are issues worth talking about, and I'm not sure why anyone would disagree with that.

Then you have not been paying attention

[Shell B]

If you're going to say anything negative by a feminist is taken out of context, an honest conversation about this isn't possible. If you're going to say every single MRA is a monster, an honest conversation isn't possible.

There is no conversation to be had with the MRA . Best avoid them and look for groups that actually will solve the problem.

I'm talking about the conversation we're having about men's rights activism. Last I checked, neither of us is MRA.