Men's Rights Movement

[GrandizerII]

I'm sorry, I stand corrected. You referred to The Red Pill, but didn't post it. That doesn't negate the point I'm making, which is that when you write:


-- discussing the merits of her feminism, and your take on it, is very apt. You certainly had no problem offering your own opinion of feminism, but get frustrated when others don't share your outlook and instead offer their own?

You opened the discussion yourself. It's a good discussion.

I'm not sure how you've drawn all those conclussions.

1. I said "many feminist movements are out of line in being against men." I wasn't giving an opinion on feminism in general.

2. I'm not sure what you mean about "discussing the merits of her feminism." I somply said that the documentary is about a woman who started out calling herself a feminist and now says she no longer does. Which is true.

3. I'm not "frustrated about people's opinions on feminism." I'm frustrated at people having a problem with others saying some men's issues are valid. Im frustrated with people having a problem with a person being for womens rights but choosing not to use the lable of feminist on themselves. Im frustrated about people calling ME anti feminist for simply saying some men's issues are worthy of discussion.

---

So say it then. Say that women have it worse than men in this patriarchal world, while saying that men have disadvantages that nevertheless deserve to be addressed, even though they pale in comparison to what women have to go through.

Do you agree with the statement above?

Also, here's what you could've done for a thread instead of this current thread.

You could've pointed out in your OP that women face a lot of issues that need addressing, and they are worth continuing to address in this world that clearly privileges men over women. But for this thread, I'd like to talk about the disadvantages men face in this patriarchical world as well, but of course without taking away from the fight for women's rights. What are some of the issues that men have, and what can we do to fix them?

Something like that.

Instead, you made your OP about a biased propaganda video made by a former feminist who "realized" feminism just didn't cut it for her anymore after realizing MRAs (clearly known for the ugly things they have said about women) had some "good" points to make. Your remark that she used to be "very feminist" clearly shows what your stance is on this matter (btw, I note you did not deny you had an anti-feminist agenda), and you really came up with this thread to have a go at feminism just as much as talk about men's issues.

I'm glad quite a number of members saw through this bullshit.

Ok dude, I will be SURE to say "But women have it worse!" ...Every time I bring up a man's issue, as not to offend your sensibilities. I'll remember what the ridiculous annoying little man from atheist forums told me (a woman) to do.

Then just mention mens issues if you dont want to write too many words. Why even bring up feminism at all? Your whole thread, starting with OP and your responses, betrays your agenda, and glad you find me annoying little man.

[Whateverist]

Welcome to a thread where women are being spoken for almost entirely by men at this point.

Is a vagina a requirement for seeing institutional discrimination, and discussing it?

What if I get a note from my wife's vagina, then can I discuss it?

---

I'm sorry, I stand corrected. You referred to The Red Pill, but didn't post it. That doesn't negate the point I'm making, which is that when you write:


-- discussing the merits of her feminism, and your take on it, is very apt. You certainly had no problem offering your own opinion of feminism, but get frustrated when others don't share your outlook and instead offer their own?

You opened the discussion yourself. It's a good discussion.

I'm not sure how you've drawn all those conclussions.

1. I said "many feminist movements are out of line in being against men." I wasn't giving an opinion on feminism in general.

2. I'm not sure what you mean about "discussing the merits of her feminism." I somply said that the documentary is about a woman who started out calling herself a feminist and now says she no longer does. Which is true.

3. I'm not "frustrated about people's opinions on feminism." I'm frustrated at people having a problem with others saying some men's issues are valid. Im frustrated with people having a problem with a person being for womens rights but choosing not to use the lable of feminist on themselves. Im frustrated about people calling ME anti feminist for simply saying some men's issues are worthy of discussion.

---

So say it then. Say that women have it worse than men in this patriarchal world, while saying that men have disadvantages that nevertheless deserve to be addressed, even though they pale in comparison to what women have to go through.

Do you agree with the statement above?

Also, here's what you could've done for a thread instead of this current thread.

You could've pointed out in your OP that women face a lot of issues that need addressing, and they are worth continuing to address in this world that clearly privileges men over women. But for this thread, I'd like to talk about the disadvantages men face in this patriarchical world as well, but of course without taking away from the fight for women's rights. What are some of the issues that men have, and what can we do to fix them?

Something like that.

Instead, you made your OP about a biased propaganda video made by a former feminist who "realized" feminism just didn't cut it for her anymore after realizing MRAs (clearly known for the ugly things they have said about women) had some "good" points to make. Your remark that she used to be "very feminist" clearly shows what your stance is on this matter (btw, I note you did not deny you had an anti-feminist agenda), and you really came up with this thread to have a go at feminism just as much as talk about men's issues.

I'm glad quite a number of members saw through this bullshit.

Ok dude, I will be SURE to say "But women have it worse!" ...Every time I bring up a man's issue, as not to offend your sensibilities. I'll remember what the ridiculous annoying little man from atheist forums told me (a woman) to do.

(And FYI, my remark that she used to be "very feminist" is the premise of the doc, not my opinion. The doc starts of with her explaining how she was a feminist  activist and had previously made a documentary about women's rights, etc. That remark was me explaining what the doc is about, it wasn't my personal opinion I was giving of her.)

Good to know I can count on you for some perspective when my prostate decides to take me out.

[Tiberius]

Well men don't really suffer discrimination but women very much do and the complaints of MRA seem to be more like "Women are bitches when they say no to sex with a neckbeard like me!".

Hammy, you really need to go and do some research. Firstly, men do suffer legitimate discrimination. Not as much as women, but that's irrelevant to the fact that they do suffer it. Maybe you haven't personally suffered it, but it still exists. Here are a few examples:

Longer prison sentences for the same crime.

Domestic Violence Shelters (there are loads of these for women and children, hardly any for men, despite the fact that 1 in 4 men have experienced domestic violence)

Prostate Cancer Awareness (breast cancer awareness funding is about 4 times as much as that for prostate cancer awareness funding, despite prostate cancer affecting the same numbers of men, and men often dying earlier from it)

Visitation Rights / Family Court in general (this doesn't really need any explanation unless you've lived under a rock for 30 years, men have a massive disadvantage in divorce proceedings that involve children)

Your mischaracterization of MRAs is exactly the same as claiming that feminists are all anti-men. It's fake and you couldn't back up that claim if you tried. This is unfortunately the reality of both movements though, that they have been poisoned by their fringe elements. Feminism is often seen as overreaching and anti-male, and MRAs are seen as anti-woman. However we shouldn't rely on false views of those movements to ignore the real grievances that both have.

[FFaith]

I'm sorry, I stand corrected. You referred to The Red Pill, but didn't post it. That doesn't negate the point I'm making, which is that when you write:


-- discussing the merits of her feminism, and your take on it, is very apt. You certainly had no problem offering your own opinion of feminism, but get frustrated when others don't share your outlook and instead offer their own?

You opened the discussion yourself. It's a good discussion.

3. I'm not "frustrated about people's opinions on feminism." I'm frustrated at people having a problem with others saying some men's issues are valid. Im frustrated with people having a problem with a person being for womens rights but choosing not to use the lable of feminist on themselves. Im frustrated about people calling ME anti feminist for simply saying some men's issues are worthy of discussion.

This. The White Lives Matter comparison is dumb. Does Neil Degrasse Tyson hate atheism just because he doesn't want to be labeled an atheist? Of course not. Most of the people here calling themselves egalitarian are not even close to alt right sympathizers, and they have clearly shown that with their posting histories.

I would say that MRA started their own thing because they didn't see their issues being addressed enough, and saw too many women downplaying their issues. If these women downplaying these issues had their child taken out of their life for the most part by a court, maybe they would understand a little better. I rarely see feminists talking about men's problems with getting a fair shot at custody in the courts. What do I see feminists talking about all the time though? Men talking over them (which happens to all sexes. Men talk over eachother all the time). Yes, that's so much more important than someone having their child torn from them. Manspreading and other dumb stuff like that? Ugh.

I have no problem with the statement that women have it worse overall, but I agree with you that men's disadvantages shouldn't be downplayed so much. People can call themselves whatever they want, whether that be feminist, egalitarian, or whatever. I don't care. Pretty much all groups and movements have shitty people in them, but I'm not going to let that affect how I look at the issues. I support blacks getting better treatment and standing in society, even though many people involved with or supporting BLM think I should be treated like shit for being white. Even though there are many Muslims who think I'm just a filthy kufar who should be killed, I still support Muslims around the world and am against all the harm that the military industrial complex causes to all these majority-Muslim countries. I think women deserve better from society even though there are a great deal of shitty feminists. I think men deserve better, even though there are many sexist clowns who call themselves MRAs.

[Edwardo Piet]

I'm not sure why it has to be a girls vs boys competition between which issues is "more important." Seems silly, imho.

I agree with you semantically. While I don't believe men have as many problems with equality as women, I don't think any individual problems are more important than others intrinsically or because of the gender of the person having a problem.

---

Hardly...

I'm talking about on a large scale like women do, I'm not talking about the odd man-hating mad woman.

I'm sure there's white people who suffer discrimination from black people too. But we don't exactly need a "white lives matter" movement.

These MRA incels need to get some fucking perspective.

You've clearly never spent any time in probate court.

I guess I can think of ONE example. My ex was violent to me but I had to just deal with it because I wouldn't be taken seriously and if she lied and said I'd hit her it would have been taken very seriously. And she only hit me once and it wasn't too bad so meh.

The emotional abuse was worse but she was the one who could turn her tears on just because she didn't get her way even though she was the one mistreating me, and I'm sure she'd have been taken more seriously than me.

But other than that and perhaps some child custody issues. That's about it. My point is it's nothing in comparison to the ubiquitous discrimination against women. There's like a couple of things with men and that's it.

But to top it all off? The discrimination against men is caused by sexism towards women! The reason why men aren't taken seriously when women abuse them is because they're supposed to be a 'man' because of a society that's sexist against women. And the reason why men have harder times with child custody sometimes is because of the sexist stereotype against women that women are more suited to taking care of the children while men do the 'real work'.

So basically, get rid of the sexism against women and you'll solve both problems. Even the discrimination against men is caused by sexism against women. It's not caused by sexism against men.

The TLDR: Feminism will solve both problems.

[Tiberius]

I guess I can think of ONE example. My ex was violent to me but I had to just deal with it because I wouldn't be taken seriously and if she lied and said I'd hit her it would have been taken very seriously. And she only hit me once and it wasn't too bad so meh.

The fact that you wouldn't be taken seriously is exactly the problem that men face in society.

The emotional abuse was worse but she was the one who could turn her tears on just because she didn't get her way even though she was the one mistreating me, and I'm sure she'd have been taken more seriously than me.

The fact that she would have been taken more seriously than you is exactly the problem that men face in society.

But other than that and perhaps some child custody issues. That's about it. My point is it's nothing in comparison to the ubiquitous discrimination against women. There's like a couple of things with men and that's it.

Again, do your research. It's not "a couple of things", and even if it was, it shouldn't matter. The fact that there is any discrimination against men in society is bad. Just because women face worse discrimination doesn't mean we should just ignore the discrimination faced by men or put it off to a later date, we can fix multiple issues at the same time.

But to top it all off? The discrimination against men is caused by sexism towards women! The reason why men aren't taken seriously is because they're supposed to be a 'man' because of sexist society.

That's not sexism towards women dude, that's sexism towards men.

And the reason why men have harder times with child custody sometimes is because of the sexist stereotype against women that women are more suited to taking care of the children while men do the 'real work'.

...then that's sexist towards both men and women simultaneously.

So basically, get rid of the sexism against women and you'll solve both problems. Even the discrimination against men is caused by sexism against women not by sexism against men.

I don't think the solution is as simple as you seem to think it is.

[Seraphina]

Well men don't really suffer discrimination but women very much do and the complaints of MRA seem to be more like "Women are bitches when they say no to sex with a neckbeard like me!".

Hammy, you really need to go and do some research. Firstly, men do suffer legitimate discrimination. Not as much as women, but that's irrelevant to the fact that they do suffer it. Maybe you haven't personally suffered it, but it still exists. Here are a few examples:

Longer prison sentences for the same crime.

Domestic Violence Shelters (there are loads of these for women and children, hardly any for men, despite the fact that 1 in 4 men have experienced domestic violence)

Prostate Cancer Awareness (breast cancer awareness funding is about 4 times as much as that for prostate cancer awareness funding, despite prostate cancer affecting the same numbers of men, and men often dying earlier from it)

Visitation Rights / Family Court in general (this doesn't really need any explanation unless you've lived under a rock for 30 years, men have a massive disadvantage in divorce proceedings that involve children)

Your mischaracterization of MRAs is exactly the same as claiming that feminists are all anti-men. It's fake and you couldn't back up that claim if you tried. This is unfortunately the reality of both movements though, that they have been poisoned by their fringe elements. Feminism is often seen as overreaching and anti-male, and MRAs are seen as anti-woman. However we shouldn't rely on false views of those movements to ignore the real grievances that both have.

If the issues above are important to you, then do something about it. I've gotten up off the couch and stood up in measurable ways for issues that are important to me and people close to me. Meaningful societal changes don't happen by creating a thread or posting on Facebook or social media.
And I'd also venture a guess that nobody's opinion here has changed on feminism despite this thread.

-Teresa

[Minimalist]

Yup.  Solutions are never simple any more.  As someone once noted:  "Most things in life are easier to get into than out of."

[Edwardo Piet]

---

I guess I can think of ONE example. My ex was violent to me but I had to just deal with it because I wouldn't be taken seriously and if she lied and said I'd hit her it would have been taken very seriously. And she only hit me once and it wasn't too bad so meh.

The fact that you wouldn't be taken seriously is exactly the problem that men face in society.

The emotional abuse was worse but she was the one who could turn her tears on just because she didn't get her way even though she was the one mistreating me, and I'm sure she'd have been taken more seriously than me.

The fact that she would have been taken more seriously than you is exactly the problem that men face in society.

But other than that and perhaps some child custody issues. That's about it. My point is it's nothing in comparison to the ubiquitous discrimination against women. There's like a couple of things with men and that's it.

Again, do your research. It's not "a couple of things", and even if it was, it shouldn't matter. The fact that there is any discrimination against men in society is bad. Just because women face worse discrimination doesn't mean we should just ignore the discrimination faced by men or put it off to a later date, we can fix multiple issues at the same time.

But to top it all off? The discrimination against men is caused by sexism towards women! The reason why men aren't taken seriously is because they're supposed to be a 'man' because of sexist society.

That's not sexism towards women dude, that's sexism towards men.

And the reason why men have harder times with child custody sometimes is because of the sexist stereotype against women that women are more suited to taking care of the children while men do the 'real work'.

...then that's sexist towards both men and women simultaneously.

So basically, get rid of the sexism against women and you'll solve both problems. Even the discrimination against men is caused by sexism against women not by sexism against men.

I don't think the solution is as simple as you seem to think it is.

---

I agree that those issues still matter. I am not going to fall for the Perfect Solution Fallacy.

But I do think the discrimination against men is entirely caused by sexism against women.

I do think the solution is simple. I think a lot of solutions are simple. In principle. That doesn't make them easy in practice.

I mean, the solution to Trump is simple: Impeach the fucker. But that doesn't mean it's gonna be easy to get that done.

---

The White Lives Matter comparison is dumb. Does Neil Degrasse Tyson hate atheism just because he doesn't want to be labeled an atheist? Of course not.

I don't get what your point about labeling or not labeling oneself has to do with anything. And I haven't seen you explain anywhere why the White Lives Matter comparison is dumb.

There must be some racism against white people. And if it were caused by some black people taking revenge and feeling like the white people 'deserved it' even though they didn't, and therefore the cause was actually racism against black people... that would be relevant.

If men are only mistreated in cases where the sexist stereotypes against women leave men at a disadvantage in some situations because sometimes men are too hard on themselves (men who get mistreated by women are seen as weak and left aside by other men . . . and men are the ones who constructed a society where women are told they are the ones who need to focus more on child rearing. The mistreatment of a few men is only a disadvantage to the minority of men... to the majority (or the powerful minorites) of men it just gives them more power. This is absolutely more examples of sexism against women).

I think in the cases where men are discriminated against, it's due to men doing that to themselves. It's very clear that society has been basically built by men while women have been left aside and it's only in the last few decades that women have been able to fight back. The more fighting back women do, and the more men support their rights, the less discrimination there will be against both men and women.

[Shell B]

Hammy, you really need to go and do some research. Firstly, men do suffer legitimate discrimination. Not as much as women, but that's irrelevant to the fact that they do suffer it. Maybe you haven't personally suffered it, but it still exists. Here are a few examples:

Longer prison sentences for the same crime.

Domestic Violence Shelters (there are loads of these for women and children, hardly any for men, despite the fact that 1 in 4 men have experienced domestic violence)

Prostate Cancer Awareness (breast cancer awareness funding is about 4 times as much as that for prostate cancer awareness funding, despite prostate cancer affecting the same numbers of men, and men often dying earlier from it)

Visitation Rights / Family Court in general (this doesn't really need any explanation unless you've lived under a rock for 30 years, men have a massive disadvantage in divorce proceedings that involve children)

Your mischaracterization of MRAs is exactly the same as claiming that feminists are all anti-men. It's fake and you couldn't back up that claim if you tried. This is unfortunately the reality of both movements though, that they have been poisoned by their fringe elements. Feminism is often seen as overreaching and anti-male, and MRAs are seen as anti-woman. However we shouldn't rely on false views of those movements to ignore the real grievances that both have.

If the issues above are important to you, then do something about it. I've gotten up off the couch and stood up in measurable ways for issues that are important to me and people close to me. Meaningful societal changes don't happen by creating a thread or posting on Facebook or social media.
And I'd also venture a guess that nobody's opinion here has changed on feminism despite this thread.

-Teresa

I can't tell if you're suggesting he doesn't do anything about it or if you're just making a general statement. We're active in politics and philanthropy as much as our schedules and income allow, which is more than we could have hoped for, so it's not just armchair activism in our house. That might change when we have littles, but for now, we have time to contribute.

I agree with you 100%. No one has changed their minds about feminism because of this thread. It's for the best.