Nihilism

[ShirkahnW]

I just currently read about the problem of free will. And whilst doing that i discovered that free will doesnt actually exist. This has thrown me into some kind of Nihilistic Worldview...
Any thoughtsß

[vulcanlogician]

Just because there is no free will, that doesn't imply a lack of values.

If we take free will out of the equation, we haven't said that people don't make choices. It's simply that their choices have causes which are out of their control-- they have WILL, just not FREE will. We can use this knowledge to better (ie more accurately) understand people's choices and motives.

Also, while I tend toward a rejection of free will, I'm no nihilist. I think that violence and crime are bad, but I don't reduce them to a simple free choice by the perpetrators of such actions.

Also, the matter of free will is far from settled.

Please elaborate on why "no free will = nihilism"

[ShirkahnW]

I dont know... I just think that everything in our world is absed on the assumption that we make our own decicions and that we can change them if we like.

[shadow]

I don't think it makes a difference. Even if everything on an atomic level is already set in motion (which, in terms of physics, I think it is) including my own brain and it's functioning, that doesn't make any of my experiences less real. It doesn't make my role in this 'fated' machine any different or less interesting.

Also, while I tend toward a rejection of free will, I'm no nihilist. I think that violence and crime are bad, but I don't reduce them to a simple free choice by the perpetrators of such actions.

This is why I'm strongly for a justice system that focuses on reforming people and deterring future criminal activity, as opposed to just getting retribution for crimes.

@OP, I think we, as a society, assume free will and accountability for choices because if we don't, that influences people's behavior in a negative way. We indeed can change our decision, but only when our surroundings incentivize us to do so. Think about how our society would be if we didn't assume that we could make our own choices, and didn't hold people accountable for anything... in that sense accountability is not metaphysically based, but influences our decisions in a positive way by correlating cause and effect.

[Neo-Scholastic]

Just because there is no free will, that doesn't imply a lack of values.

If we take free will out of the equation, we haven't said that people don't make choices. It's simply that their choices have causes which are out of their control-- they have WILL, just not FREE will. We can use this knowledge to better (ie more accurately) understand people's choices and motives.

Also, while I tend toward a rejection of free will, I'm no nihilist. I think that violence and crime are bad, but I don't reduce them to a simple free choice by the perpetrators of such actions.

Also, the matter of free will is far from settled.

Please elaborate on why "no free will = nihilism"

Indeed. The proper relationship would be with fatalism.

[henryp]

I dont know... I just think that everything in our world is absed on the assumption that we make our own decicions and that we can change them if we like.

The beauty of nihilism, is that it doesn't matter what you believe.  You can know there is no free will, and live like there is anyways.  There are no bonus points for 'logic' or 'being correct.'  Just do whatever you like.

That being said, the knowledge may change your perception on a number of issues.  But, again, it's not too big a deal, because a part of not having free will is not having the ability to feel like you don't have free will.

[bennyboy]

If you feel like you have free will, go ahead and live out your life as though free will is real.

NOTHING is real as it seems. That hot girl or guy you like, that one who fills out a pair of jeans so nicely, is actually 99.99% empty space. QM particles are squirrely little fuckers that just won't behave properly, and they make up everything. We have no access to reality but through our experience, and yet we have convinced ourselves that mind is the least real / least important thing there is.

Here's the funny thing about determinism. If all the forces in the universe line up so that you will be a happy, fun-filled person, then yeah, maybe you were always going to be that. So PRETEND you really have the freedom to choose you have free will-- because however you live life was how you were going to live it, and that choice to be happy is part of that.

Does that make sense? Whatever you choose is what you were going to choose due to determinism-- so you can still choose whichever paths you want, and maybe you'll find out later that you were predetermined to live that wonderful life.

[vulcanlogician]

Please elaborate on why "no free will = nihilism"

Indeed. The proper relationship would be with fatalism.

Do you think that determinism/incompatibilism inevitably results in fatalism?

Or were you simply remarking that fatalism is much more likely to follow from determinism than nihilism?

[GrandizerII]

Even without libertarian free will, you still do what you are conditioned to do anyway. Just "hope" for the fact that you live in a universe where you don't suffer severely negative experiences that some of your doppelgangers in other universes will unfortunately suffer.

[bennyboy]

Here's the thing: free will is the capacity to act according to your own nature-- nobody is ever going to make a decision that is not in their own nature. So for all functional purposes, everything you do if there's no free will is probably exactly what you would do if you HAD free will.

Did I freely choose among the candies to arrive at my Smarties purchase, or did some long causal chain back to the Big Bang lead to me having life experiences and eventually hormonal or neurological states that made it inevitable that I would choose Smarties?

My answer-- who gives a shit? I AM my experiences, my hormones and my neurological state, and there's no other basis on which I would want to make decisions anyway.