Nihilism

[GrandizerII]

For me, its really just semantics is all. Maybe other compatibilists think differently. There are many versions of it anyway. Metaphysically, Im a hard determinist. Experientially, Im free willer. Noumenology vs phenomenology.

[possibletarian]

I just currently read about the problem of free will. And whilst doing that i discovered that free will doesnt actually exist. This has thrown me into some kind of Nihilistic Worldview...
Any thoughtsß

I liked this simple article

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/arc...ll/480750/

I live to all intents and purposes as though my choices matter, and I'm responsible for making them. Even though i'm convinced they are determined.

[Whateverist]

I think too often people think "no free will" means it doesn't matter what you do, as if determinism amounted to puppet strings that would dance you around the same with or without your involvement.  But that is incorrect.

We're one of three remaining chimp species and like every other animal we are electrochemical meat machines programmed by eons of evolution to have certain responses to certain kinds of stimuli.  So no, we're not just an independent brain rationally picking our way through life.  But our rational minds very much do give us an advantage in achieving the kinds of ends evolution has disposed us to desire.  Hey, who wants to be a machine?  As animals with souped up frontal lobes we kick ass.  There is plenty to do which requires our attention and participation if we want to actually get what we are disposed to want.  Or, boo hoo, we can whine about not getting to decide independently which tastes we'd prefer to have.

[Neo-Scholastic]

Indeed. The proper relationship would be with fatalism.

Do you think that determinism/incompatibilism inevitably results in fatalism?

Or were you simply remarking that fatalism is much more likely to follow from determinism than nihilism?

"Fatalism" has two connotations and I think both apply. Determinism is about one's fate being inevitable, which by definition makes it fatalistic; however, I was thinking of the more subjective psychological state of being resigned to one's fate.

[Mr.Obvious]

Like grandizer, i too feel it's often up to semantics.
And that while we might not have actual free will, we do have The illusion of free will, which is as much as our perception, POV and Senses can 'feel' anyways. So it doesn't really matter.
If you are a free willer, it's like; take a look back at your life; all The people you met, all The things you did, all that Happened to you and all that you felt and thought and believed, ... If you took 'actual' free will out of it, what would you lose from all that? I don't think i'd lose anything at all.

[The Grand Nudger]

"Fatalism" has two connotations and I think both apply. Determinism is about one's fate being inevitable, which by definition makes it fatalistic; however, I was thinking of the more subjective psychological state of being resigned to one's fate.

The distinction between them is that fate, ala fatalism, asserts that no causal law or force can change the outcome of events.  In a fatalist universe..if a ball was fated to fall up on tuesdays..it would, no matter how hard gravity was pulling it down.   In a determinist universe, the ball falls down all day erryday. Similarly, if balls fell down because they were fated to...if gravity where to somehow reverse itself tomorrow......balls would still fall down.

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Like grandizer, i too feel it's often up to semantics.
And that while we might not have actual free will, we do have The illusion of free will, 

We have an experience of will..but whether or not that will is free is something we never have a direct experience of, even as illusion.  That part of the process is hidden from our view, and as observant things with rich perception this has to be one of the universes ironies.  Decisions come to us like a bolt of lightning.  There and done in an instant....even as the running commentary of our considerations and deliberations seems endless.

[Amarok]

The distinction between them is that fate, ala fatalism, asserts that no causal law or force can change the outcome of events.  In a fatalist universe..if a ball was fated to fall up on tuesdays..it would, no matter how hard gravity was pulling it down.   In a determinist universe, the ball falls down all day erryday.  Similarly, if balls fell down because they were fated to...if gravity where to somehow reverse itself tomorrow......balls would still fall down.  

Which is not really a bad thing depending on the "fate" And it's contrary is not really always a good thing depending on "fate" Setting aside wooters sad attempts at emotional pleas and demonstrating why he ran scream into the arms of irrationality.

[Edwardo Piet]

I just currently read about the problem of free will. And whilst doing that i discovered that free will doesnt actually exist. This has thrown me into some kind of Nihilistic Worldview...
Any thoughtsß

My thoughts is that it's a good thing. An absence of negative meaning is not a lack of positive meaning. Go figure!

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Just because there is no free will, that doesn't imply a lack of values.

If we take free will out of the equation, we haven't said that people don't make choices. It's simply that their choices have causes which are out of their control-- they have WILL, just not FREE will. We can use this knowledge to better (ie more accurately) understand people's choices and motives.

Also, while I tend toward a rejection of free will, I'm no nihilist. I think that violence and crime are bad, but I don't reduce them to a simple free choice by the perpetrators of such actions.

Also, the matter of free will is far from settled.

Please elaborate on why "no free will = nihilism"

I agree that the fact our decisions are predetermined doesn't mean they don't exist.

However if our 'choices' are ultimately entirely caused by events entirely beyond our control... would it really make much sense to call them 'choices'?

I'd say our brains make decisions for us, and we have no choices, but that doesn't mean the decisions don't matter. They certainly matter. They're just not really up to us.

The key difference between fatalism and determinism is not a difference in responsibility and choice. In either case we have no responsiblity and choice. The key difference is that the fatalist irrationally pretends like our actions and mental events aren't part of the causal stream when they obviously are. Our future actions will be entirely caused ultimately by events entirely beyond our control but they won't be caused regardless of what we do.

What we do still matters. It's just that ultimately... it's not us doing it.

[henryp]

There is some irony in our advise that it's fine to believe free will exists even though it doesn't.

[Edwardo Piet]

It's fine to be irrational as long as you can function. I do think it's stupid and I would rather be rational though.