Objective Morality?

[The Grand Nudger]

Would the cow have lived at all otherwise? No, and it would also live a better life than if it was in the wild, free from hunger, disease, predators and dying of starvation once it becomes to frail to keep up with the herd. Farming animals provides them with a better quality of life and the only reason we do such a thing is because there is a pay off for us with the meat we consume - It seems to me rather clear than a farmed animal has a higher quality life, relative to both it's existence in the wild and the fact that it likely would have never existed at all - the fact that it has to be consumed as a result of this process doesn't undermine that. Obviously this excludes battery farming, the animals there have pretty miserable lives and I avoid eating battery farmed meat whenever possible.

The argument holds even under battery farming (which I'm not a fan of). The cow again would not have lived, and it would meet an even more "in-humane" adversary in life as a wild animal. Not to mention it's eventual end beneath the slow jaws of some carnivorous predator that hasn't developed stun/bolt. Or starvation, disease, and injury.

[theVOID]

The argument holds even under battery farming (which I'm not a fan of). The cow again would not have lived, and it would meet an even more "in-humane" adversary in life as a wild animal. Not to mention it's eventual end beneath the slow jaws of some carnivorous predator that hasn't developed stun/bolt. Or starvation, disease, and injury.

Right, plus modern methods for killing in abattoirs avoid an enormous amount of the pain of being killed and eaten by some other animal.

Even while that argument may work for battery farming and it could be realistically be deemed amoral I'd still largely abstain because of my own attitudes.

[Captain Scarlet]

The argument holds even under battery farming (which I'm not a fan of). The cow again would not have lived, and it would meet an even more "in-humane" adversary in life as a wild animal. Not to mention it's eventual end beneath the slow jaws of some carnivorous predator that hasn't developed stun/bolt. Or starvation, disease, and injury.

Right, plus modern methods for killing in abattoirs avoid an enormous amount of the pain of being killed and eaten by some other animal.

Even while that argument may work for battery farming and it could be realistically be deemed amoral I'd still largely abstain because of my own attitudes.

It's a bit of a side issue to the good overall case presented for moral realism. But I am not convinced by the response here. I buy that some animals have such a low capacity to have desires that they are inconsequential. But higher animals that show some degree of intelligence may indeed benefit from being born in captivity but still do not want to be slaughtered. Lets stick with the example of the cow and grant them the ability to have some form of desires. What is the difference between farming cows (which would not have been born otherwise) and farming fertilized human embryos (which would not have been born otherwise) to harvest organs for transplants? Again i would buy the capacity to have desires is much higher in the case of humans, but that doesn't appear to be the case you are making. Surely what you are arguing for is a consequential morality and the mere fact a sentient animal was raised in captivity is not relevant, as the animal can have no or very limited desires before being born, but can have them afterwards, as with human embryos.

[The Grand Nudger]

Farming is farming Scarlet, embryos for all!

[DeistPaladin]

Coincidentally, this video was just posted:

(I know it's about theistic morality but I thought people might still enjoy it)

[The Grand Nudger]

All humor aside, I have a strong suspicion that any definition of objective morality would be unsatisfactory to us. There isn't much about a human being (if anything at all) that isn't goal driven. I personally can't say anything about the subject. I offer up the great and powerful "I have no idea".

Fucking epic clip Paladin.

[Faith No More]

I too must also declare what an epic fucking clip that was DP.

[DeistPaladin]

I too must also declare what an epic fucking clip that was DP.

Mr. Deity is an awesome YouTuber. I'm glad I subscribed to his channel.

[The Grand Nudger]

I've been going thru them all.

[Cinjin]

All humor aside, I have a strong suspicion that any definition of objective morality would be unsatisfactory to us. There isn't much about a human being (if anything at all) that isn't goal driven. I personally can't say anything about the subject. I offer up the great and powerful "I have no idea".

I certainly don't know either Rhythm, but the topic has always interested me because most everyone has some kind of very basic sense of what is right and wrong - regardless of how another society views those same perceptions. It makes me think that somewhere, there lies a platform (however small it may be) for morality that resides in the genetic makeup of all humans. Besides, somebody's got to play Devil's advocate - otherwise, we would have no debate - and that's no fun.