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Verse 42:23 and how to interpret it, disciplines of interpreting Quran.
RE: Verse 42:23 and how to interpret it, disciplines of interpreting Quran.
(January 14, 2018 at 4:55 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote:
(January 14, 2018 at 4:20 pm)Brian37 Wrote: I will accept that between the two of you you are the "good cop" Muslim, and while MK is not a member of ISIS his bent is more "bad cop".

BUT,  both of you are at the same time NOT getting it.

You are BOTH arguing the writings of antiquity just like Baptists and Catholics whom are both Christian. 

I am the outsider looking at both of you saying, "THAT WAS THEN, THIS IS NOW".

Good cop bad cop are on the same side.
We aren't.
Read about the Twelver Shiite sect.

We are not on the same side.

I didn't say you are on the same side, but you are reading the same holy book.
Reply
RE: Verse 42:23 and how to interpret it, disciplines of interpreting Quran.
(January 14, 2018 at 5:01 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote:
(January 14, 2018 at 4:56 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: I been calling people to read Quran Atlas, you misunderstand. It says in Quran it doesn't increase the unjust but in perdition. Do you not know that verse?
No I don't know it.
Please quote it.

http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?...7&verse=82

Sahih International: And We send down of the Qur'an that which is healing and mercy for the believers, but it does not increase the wrongdoers except in loss.
Pickthall: And We reveal of the Qur'an that which is a healing and a mercy for believers though it increase the evil-doers in naught save ruin.
Yusuf Ali: We send down (stage by stage) in the Qur'an that which is a healing and a mercy to those who believe: to the unjust it causes nothing but loss after loss.
Shakir: And We reveal of the Quran that which is a healing and a mercy to the believers, and it adds only to the perdition of the unjust.
Muhammad Sarwar: We reveal the Quran which is a cure and mercy for the believers but does nothing for the unjust except to lead them to perdition.
Mohsin Khan: And We send down from the Quran that which is a healing and a mercy to those who believe (in Islamic Monotheism and act on it), and it increases the Zalimun (polytheists and wrong-doers) nothing but loss.
Arberry: And We send down, of the Koran, that which is a healing and a mercy to the believers; and the unbelievers it increases not, except in loss.
Reply
RE: Verse 42:23 and how to interpret it, disciplines of interpreting Quran.
(January 14, 2018 at 4:56 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: I been calling people to read Quran Atlas, you misunderstand. It says in Quran it doesn't increase the unjust but in perdition. Do you not know that verse?

I am not saying not to read it. But if people come to it to limit what they perceive of it and inforce their ignorant interpretation which is not proven by clear proofs and signs and light in their hearts or if they conclude that what they did not perceive in it must not be there by their hasty non-reflecting way of reciting, than they didn't act according to it's paradigm.

And if they don't know and don't ask the family of the guidance and reminder of the time for knowledge and wisdom, they don't act according to it's paradigm.

And if they claim authority or follow authority not given by God, they are blind to it's most emphasized central thesis and still think they understood the book, that is the worse disease.

The family of Mohammad are with Quran and Quran is with them, you can't prove you truly believe in Quran even with all your praise of it neither can I. We have to act according to people's words, so I have to acknowledge you as Muslim and you as me Muslim, but at the end, no one can prove they aren't deceivers, let alone believers, let alone that they ought to be followed with respect to the interpretation.

We are to teach people what we know, but with all that, we must be humble to one another, and learn from another, and not deny when things become clear out of envy like the son of Adam when he killed the other son of Adam, nor because we are treated as trangressors by a creed do we turn away from it's clear arguments.

The Quran says "O people of the book do you just hate us because we believe in what has been revealed...and (believe that) most of you are transgressors".

Yes I believe the worst people are those who recite Quran and it doesn't go past their throats, so they don't see the family of Mohammad in Quran. It hurts me a lot, but I believe that. It pains me, but I believe that.

If you don't see the family of the reminder in Quran, how can you see their names? Their names are of it's themes, but it takes time.

I don't how allergic you are to the love demanded by 42:23, but the family of Mohammad/Ali/Fatima are the means and way to God now, just as it was once upon time the family of Abraham/Jacob and just as once upon time the family of Moses/Aaron/David/Imran.

Quote:AtlasS33 said:

  Answer any of these.
  And no gymnastics or textual walls ! no implicit answers!
  Just give me one verse, across the 600 pages of the Quran that mentions any of the 5 questions' answers.


 
  AtlasS33 said:

  I'll give you many options; all prove your religion if you answer them:
  1- A verse mentioning "Ali" by the name.
  2-A verse mentioning "Hasaen" by the name.
  3-A verse mentioning "Hussain" by the name.
  4-A verse mentioning the 12 divine imams that we must follow
  5-A verse mentioning the last imam that you and your cult believe will rule the universe or whatever -Imam Mahdy-

https://atheistforums.org/thread-51114-p...pid1638839

Answer, then we talk.
Reply
RE: Verse 42:23 and how to interpret it, disciplines of interpreting Quran.
I quoted one verse that it doesn't increase the unjust but in perdition. But it turns out there is a theme of this in Quran and it explains exactly why that is the case.

If you haven't even noticed that much in Quran, I don't know how much I can help you see the names of the 12 Imams and successors of Mohammad in Quran. Obviously that is more of am implicit theme, but to me it's done in such an obvious manner because I understand the wisdom of the names and the order, and it makes sense to me, and I can tell how it has emphasized on the names that is so.

But you don't even acknowledge the Authority of those who God gave his authority to which is the only type of true Authority there is.

Before learning calculus, you have to get basic math right.

Let's see if you can swallow the basics first.
Reply
RE: Verse 42:23 and how to interpret it, disciplines of interpreting Quran.
(January 14, 2018 at 5:01 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:
(January 14, 2018 at 5:00 pm)chimp3 Wrote: Not in my eyes. Both are a cheap, sleazy recount of the already cheap and sleazy old/new testaments. Nothing new. Same old bull shit!

Your eyes might be clouded.

Your eyes are certainly clouded. You have no credibility in my eyes in reference to an imaginary god. Why should I believe you , MAN!
God thinks it's fun to confuse primates. Larsen's God!






Reply
RE: Verse 42:23 and how to interpret it, disciplines of interpreting Quran.
(January 14, 2018 at 5:14 pm)chimp3 Wrote:
(January 14, 2018 at 5:01 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Your eyes might be clouded.

Your eyes are certainly clouded. You have no credibility in my eyes in reference to an imaginary god. Why should I believe you , MAN!

There is no reason to, but you should listen to reason, lest the truth becomes on equal footing to the falsehood to you.
Reply
RE: Verse 42:23 and how to interpret it, disciplines of interpreting Quran.
(January 14, 2018 at 5:16 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:
(January 14, 2018 at 5:14 pm)chimp3 Wrote: Your eyes are certainly clouded. You have no credibility in my eyes in reference to an imaginary god. Why should I believe you , MAN!

There is no reason to, but you should listen to reason, lest the truth becomes on equal footing to the falsehood to you.

Define reason!
God thinks it's fun to confuse primates. Larsen's God!






Reply
RE: Verse 42:23 and how to interpret it, disciplines of interpreting Quran.
(January 14, 2018 at 5:18 pm)chimp3 Wrote:
(January 14, 2018 at 5:16 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: There is no reason to, but you should listen to reason, lest the truth becomes on equal footing to the falsehood to you.

Define reason!

I can point you to those who define reason in the best way. 

They are the people who God has perfected in it them, and who God perfects the reason of others through.

Find them.
Reply
RE: Verse 42:23 and how to interpret it, disciplines of interpreting Quran.
(January 14, 2018 at 4:56 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: I been calling people to read Quran Atlas, you misunderstand. It says in Quran it doesn't increase the unjust but in perdition. Do you not know that verse?

I am not saying not to read it. But if people come to it to limit what they perceive of it and inforce their ignorant interpretation which is not proven by clear proofs and signs and light in their hearts or if they conclude that what they did not perceive in it must not be there by their hasty non-reflecting way of reciting, than they didn't act according to it's paradigm.
I know the verse now, after you posted the link.
And who has the right interpretation? God is playing soccer if he sends down a coded book, that can only be decoded by certain people.
A God like that deserves to be fought.
People have minds. Who are you to judge everybody as being ignorant; and need a "imam" to take them like a sheep?
Quote:And if they don't know and don't ask the family of the guidance and reminder of the time for knowledge and wisdom, they don't act according to it's paradigm.

But what is your evidence that the so called family is "the family of the guidance"?
Not for atheists; but for me; as a Muslim. I always read the Quran; give me a verse or two; just like I asked you here:


Quote:AtlasS33 said:

  Answer any of these.
  And no gymnastics or textual walls ! no implicit answers!
  Just give me one verse, across the 600 pages of the Quran that mentions any of the 5 questions' answers.



  AtlasS33 said:

  I'll give you many options; all prove your religion if you answer them:
  1- A verse mentioning "Ali" by the name.
  2-A verse mentioning "Hasaen" by the name.
  3-A verse mentioning "Hussain" by the name.
  4-A verse mentioning the 12 divine imams that we must follow
  5-A verse mentioning the last imam that you and your cult believe will rule the universe or whatever -Imam Mahdy-


Quote:And if they claim authority or follow authority not given by God, they are blind to it's most emphasized central thesis and still think they understood the book, that is the worse disease.

Yes; so you are claiming that we have Moses the prophet, Jesus the prophet, Mohammed the prophet, then Ali the prophet?

Quote:The family of Mohammad are with Quran and Quran is with them, you can't prove you truly believe in Quran even with all your praise of it neither can I. We have to act according to people's words, so I have to acknowledge you as Muslim and you as me Muslim, but at the end, no one can prove they aren't deceivers, let alone believers, let alone that they ought to be followed with respect to the interpretation.

Talk is cheap.
You are a Muslim if you follow what the God of Islam said. But you don't. You follow scholars instead, who said that God favored them and favored their ways.

"Said".
Talk is cheap; let them say.

Otherwise, you are a Shiite Muslim. not a "Muslim".
Quote:We are to teach people what we know, but with all that, we must be humble to one another, and learn from another, and not deny when things become clear out of envy like the son of Adam when he killed the other son of Adam, nor because we are treated as trangressors by a creed do we turn away from it's clear arguments.

No. You don't share the same religion with me, and if I said so I'm a liar.
You're lying and you know it when you say that about me; so give the readers the truth already.

I'm against what you advocate.


Quote:The Quran says "O people of the book do you just hate us because we believe in what has been revealed...and (believe that) most of you are transgressors".

Exactly. Just like your cult's hatred of Sunnies, and Sunni hate of Shiites.
Quote:Yes I believe the worst people are those who recite Quran and it doesn't go past their throats, so they don't see the family of Mohammad in Quran. It hurts me a lot, but I believe that. It pains me, but I believe that.

No. These are people who can't detect "invisible" words.


Quote:If you don't see the family of the reminder in Quran, how can you see their names? Their names are of it's themes, but it takes time.

I don't how allergic you are to the love demanded by 42:23, but the family of Mohammad/Ali/Fatima are the means and way to God now, just as it was once upon time the family of Abraham/Jacob and just as once upon time the family of Moses/Aaron/David/Imran.

No. I don't see what is not there.

Again:
https://atheistforums.org/thread-51114-p...swer+these

Quote:AtlasS33 said:

  Answer any of these.
  And no gymnastics or textual walls ! no implicit answers!
  Just give me one verse, across the 600 pages of the Quran that mentions any of the 5 questions' answers.


 
  AtlasS33 said:

  I'll give you many options; all prove your religion if you answer them:
  1- A verse mentioning "Ali" by the name.
  2-A verse mentioning "Hasaen" by the name.
  3-A verse mentioning "Hussain" by the name.
  4-A verse mentioning the 12 divine imams that we must follow
  5-A verse mentioning the last imam that you and your cult believe will rule the universe or whatever -Imam Mahdy-
Reply
RE: Verse 42:23 and how to interpret it, disciplines of interpreting Quran.
The theme of who has the right interpretation and the means to prove that are of the most emphasized themes in the Quran. How to get the proper interpretation and recite and connect the verses as they ought to be connected, is of the most emphasized themes in the Quran.

Of course every sect will claim to have righteous guided mutaqeen who have more knowledge than others, and so will cling to those people, and praise them and even attribute purity to them, but how to distinguish the right interpretation from the false lies of the dark sorcery regarding it that those with perverse hearts follow, following what is unclear from it rather then it's clear signs, is of the most emphasized themes.

Go to a Surah that talks about that, and then think about ALL the verses in it. EVERY SINGLE ONE. Try to connect them all.  IF you can't, leave it, but try. Try to connect it at least with respect to that subject. The Quran is multilayered, but if you are interested in subject pertaining to guidance, you will see so many verses pertaining to it.

You ask almost as if the Quran didn't discuss it.
Reply



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