Josh McDowell

[The Grand Nudger]

I know about cults too, of which you are a member. Whether or not I believe in a fairy tale has little impact on whether or not I can grasp the purpose of said fairy tale. You don't know anything about my reasons because for you there can be none. You are correct, I am not a mistake. My parents had blissful extramarital sex and a few decades later voila! Whatever your gods plan for me is will have to wait until there's nothing left of me because I'm already booked up until the very moment of my death. Imagining that god has double vision explains a hell of a lot about the world around us. It's impossible for him to "give up on me" since he is omni-everything. He wrote the fucking script. I'm glad you aren't interested in conversion because you're arguments are possibly the weakest examples of missionary ideology I've ever encountered. I'm glad that you won't give up on me, I return the favor. That piece of me that wants to know love has children, so again, full up thanks. I never had to learn how to be hurtful to those different than myself, it's an evolved trait. Want to hear me talk in an uplifting manner, lets talk about people using reality based solutions to reality based problems. You'll find me very unbiased if you stop asking me to accept your particular bias as absolutely and unconditionally true. When I criticize your religion I am absolutely putting my place into the hearts and minds of the people that it has ended. Utterly ended. I am perfectly capable of loving people that I don't know without the aide of magic. If pressed I'd stand arm to arm to defend you from tyranny...which is exactly what I'm doing right now. Spend less time pitying me and more time questioning your faith.

If the Lord wants to be seen, I won't be able to stop him, so stop making excuses for a man you've never met.

You have a good night too.

Also, frozen yogurt is epic, and I absolutely would say any of this to your face, with a smile on mine.

[Simon Moon]

I know about many of the cults. I know that someone who only reads the Bible to mock it wouldn't understand what it's saying, in the first place.

I originally read the Bible from the status of a believer. Not to mock it.

He has a plan for you, something that only you can achieve and that you will doing. Have you ever considered that God sees you in double vision? He sees what you are now and what you could be?

Then the god you believe exists is not omniscient. That is not how the Bible describes the 'God' character.

Where are you getting your belief that the Biblical 'God' character is not omniscient?

He doesn't give up on you, even though he knows your ultimate decision

So, 'he' knows what I will decide, but he still keeps hoping I will decide differently?!

Can I just say, WOW? I think I will...WOW!

So, you are agreeing with me. Your god created me with the advanced knowledge what my decision would be (using the brain he gave me), knowing all along that I am destined for eternal torture for a finite thought crime. Please tell me how this system represents a 'loving god'?

I'm here for that part of each of you that is truly seeking the Lord

So, you already have to believe in order to believe. Got it.

You all know so well how to hurt, to embarrass, to mock, to deceive, to simper, to refuse, but do any of you know how to rationally consider something?

I absolutely use my rationality to consider what I choose to believe. But I care way too much whether my beliefs are true, or at least likely to be true. Believing something on faith is a horrible method to choose beliefs. After all, over 66% of the Earth's population have also used faith for their religious beliefs, but according to you, they all believe in the 'wrong god'. Faith failed them, according to you.

I used to have so much bitterness, hatred and anger

None of those describe me.

If any of you were truly seeking the Lord, he would have already shown up for you as he did for me. It's when you want God to submit to your rules that he doesn't show up, why should he? You wouldn't recognize him, so he waits until you really want to know him, and he appears

As i said above, you have to believe (completely bias yourself) before you can believe. True beliefs should not require that, they should be self evident.

See my signature below.

[Ace Otana]

He has a plan for you, something that only you can achieve and that you will doing.

Right...your imaginary friend has a "plan" for me. Hell apparently.

Have you ever considered that God sees you in double vision?

Nope, why would I? I'm an atheist remember. I don't believe in all that shit.

He doesn't give up on you, even though he knows your ultimate decision,

Then your imaginary is just wasting his time.

I'm not concerned about converting you,

Good, because that would be impossible. To convert me, you'll need hard verifiable evidence. Nothing less. If you can't provide that, then it will be rejected.

I'm here for that part of each of you that is truly seeking the Lord.

Why would I seek something I don't even believes exist? Why should I seek allah? Why should I seek Thor, Odin, Ra, Seth? Why just your god? Let me guess, special pleading? Which is a fallacious argument.
So no, I won't be seeking anyone's imaginary friend. Your claim, you back it up mate.

I am here for that piece of you that wants to really know if you're loved, and it's true. You are.

Already know, I'm loved by family and friends.

You all know so well how to hurt, to embarrass, to mock, to deceive, to simper, to refuse, but do any of you know how to rationally consider something?

Yep, do it all the time.

Without a hateful word, how to weigh things like someone who is unbias?

Funny, you've been asking me to be bias. To just believe in your god. To not consider other gawds as well.

Can any of you speak in a manner that is praise-worthy, uplifting and kind?

Sure, but talking kind to someone I think is a complete wack-job can be tough.

Would any of you say these things to my face?

Yes.

Can one of you be open-minded and think of how someone else feels for a moment?

Already am and have. This doesn't mean I have to give special considerations or believe the shit you do.

Are any of you capable of loving someone you don't know?

Well I loved Jess despite the fact that I hardly knew anything about her, happens to be one of the biggest mistakes of my life. That bitch knows how to hurt. Bloody *hor*.

If any of you were truly seeking the Lord,

I'm not. I'm an atheist remember.

he would have already shown up for you as he did for me.

Well if you delude yourself then yeah.

It's when you want God to submit to your rules that he doesn't show up, why should he? You wouldn't recognize him, so he waits until you really want to know him, and he appears.

That's called delusion.

You're definitely insane.

[Javaman]

"The rejection of Christ is often not so much of the mind but of the will, not so much "I can't" but "I won't." - Josh McDowell, Evidence for Christianity

What's your gut reaction to this?

---

I'll be back to check, I'm going to watch my show.

Well, my gut reaction is that Josh McDowell is an idiot. I'd say more, but everything has been pretty well covered by others.

I will only add this thought, salty: if you had any shred of intellectual integrity, you would have abandoned your religious beliefs by now and become an atheist too. The fact you still cling to your beliefs in light of all the arguments presented makes you an object of pity. Or perhaps ridicule and scorn.

Join us salty... you know you wanna!

[KichigaiNeko]

Give it a miss salty...no one is interested

[Jaysyn]

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Thank you for such an honest response. I hope that I can meet the challenge. There were 2 questions and 4 statements. I will respond to all 6.

1. How does blood (whether animal or human) make it better?

I could ask the judicial system the same question, how does community service make up for major theft? How does someone sitting in a jail cell for the rest of their lives replace the person or people that were murdered? In a moral society we create judicial consequences that we feel fit the crime, in some cases we give capital punishment, a life for a life (or lives).

God is the ultimate judge and his justice requires that something innocent and pure be sacrificed to atone for the sins humans commit (which echoes the coming of Christ). God is holy and pure, therefore he cannot accept a tainted offering, a sinful human, a pig, a bird, etc. Before the arrival of Jesus Christ, specific animals had to be used to atone for our transgressions because there is nothing we can make or physically do to appease the Lord. He clearly defines what is acceptable and what isn't, just like the courts give acceptable ways to make up for law breaking.

2. How does it [sacrificing] make God more inclined to forgive?

By sacrificing and burning an offering to the Lord people were asking God to see them in the light of the sacrifice, as pure and innocent, meaning they acknowledged their deeds were evil and were asking to be given their innocence back. If the people sent a tainted sacrifice they are asking to be doubly cursed and mocked a holy God!

3. God is essentially sacrificing himself, as a means to convince himself to forgive us.

In order for humans to be redeemed we would need a pure and innocent sacrifice. No sinful human could resist sin in thought, in word and in deed, to become the sacrifice that would atone for the sin of Adam, thereby atoning for the sins of all human kind. As per God's requirement, an animal would work for the sins committed while living, but an animal cannot act as the intercessor for all time. Jesus was sent as a divine human to live a sinless life, die an innocent man and then when he was raised from the grave, he acts as the intercessor, the High Priest, for humans for all time. He can forgive our sins for all time because he is eternally pure and innocent.

4. Moral justice demands that the criminal alone must be punished for his transgressions.

God does not submit to human law, anyway he would never allow that which he loves most to suffer unless they chose to suffer. A father would take 40 lashes of the whip for his son. A woman would suffer a brutual beating for her daughter. Moral justice may demand that a child pay for their crimes, but it is rare that a parent won't step in if given the chance. God chose to reedem us through Jesus Christ, otherwise separation from him would be our only choice, and that is a cruel fate for all the humans that descended from Adam & Eve, to only be given the choice to die. Now, we have the choice to live (or die).

5. No one can take the place of someone else's sins, even if that person were willing.

Physically, this is false. Spiritually this is false. Judicially, this may be true.

Physically: If someone has determined that as a result of an insult or some kind of gesture that occured they would like to punish someone by beating or killing them, any person can step in and if they are willing to pay the price, which could very well be their life, then once the person is beaton (or dead), the issue is resolved. Someone has atoned.

Spiritually: Just because you believe that no on can atone for the evil you have done, doesn't make it true. According to the Christian belief, if you accept Jesus Christ as your Savior, that his suffering was for you, then he can atone for all the evil you have committed and present you to the Lord as pure.

Judicially: There may be some countries that allow people to take on the prison term or work for a parent or family member that is serving at the same time.

6. It is morally wrong to accept an offer to take my place for the things I have done wrong.

If we think over our sins, we can agree that no one deserves to pay for the evil we have committed, but us. Sacrifice for someone that is undeserving is love. That is the true definition of love. To care for someone that does not know you, care about you, or desiring to honor and respect you is to love them. This is the reason people become so hysterical as Jesus freaks, it's because God has loved us before we were even conceived and he created a path for us to be redeemed even though we don't deserve it. It's so easy morally or otherwise to love someone that is kind to us, but can you love someone that is flogging you? Can you love someone that has sexually abused you or beat you? Can you love someone who abandoned you? The love that Christians receive is from Christ himself and it's an all-consuming love that is not bound by human morals and restrictions, it reaches out to include the hated, the burned and the weary.

If you have any more questions or statements, let me know, I'll do my best to answer them.

---

[Thor]

When Jesus allowed Thomas to touch him, he said that Thomas' faith was complete with sight and blessed are those that believe without seeing.

Why is believing incredible, unsupported tales considered to be a virtue?

The Lord will provide evidence of his existence to you, if you are earnestly seeking him.

Yes, if I am already convinced that a deity exists, I can probably find his "presence" in coincidences, good fortune and mundane things.

He proved himself to me, even if I told you, no one respects my "delusional" opinion, so I'm sad to say, unless you actually take me seriously, then I'll tell you what happened.

And I'm betting your bar for "proof" is incredibly low. I'm guessing your deity didn't actually appear to you. I'm also guessing that if you told us how this deity "proved himself" we could point out how this "proof" falls miserably short of convincing evidence.

[Ace Otana]

Presupposition, that is what he's asking of us. To first assume that his imaginary friend exists. To go against reason, logic and science.

Obviously that isn't acceptable. You wouldn't expect me to presuppose the existence of Thor, Santa, Zeus, Odin but when it comes to his god, that's when I am suddenly expected to give extra consideration and even presupposition.
Special treatment and special pleading is expected from my part.

Not acceptable.

[salty]

Look at how much fun you all had while I was away. I better keep saying what I'm saying, you guys would be bored without me.

[The Grand Nudger]

You can rest easy, there are more of you than there are of us. Let somebody else fly the banner of evil for the day.