The CAM Thread

[The Grand Nudger]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_medicine

"the majority of alternative medicine users appear to be doing so largely because "they find these healthcare alternatives to be more congruent with their own values, beliefs, and philosophical orientations toward health and life."

I prefer science based medicine. Data, trials, demonstrated effects etc, call me fucking crazy. I'd rather not have some monkey jacking with my spine if a more effective treatment is available.
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Chiropractic

"There is evidence that chiropractic can help alleviate symptoms of low back pain. There is no evidence that it can help with any other medical problems and may in fact cause harm. The theory behind chiropractic, specifically subluxation theory, is scientifically unsound. It seems likely that much of the benefit of chiropractic comes from the "laying on of hands" and listening to the patient. There is no reason to believe this is any better than standard massage therapy, which may be considerably safer.
Given the non-scientific theories underlying chiropractic, and its poor results, it should be classified as a pseudoscience."

Seems to fall within the purvey of CAM to me, which is demonstrably synonymous with "bullshit". At least two posters here (myself being one) have LOST LOVED ONES due to CAM (which replaces actual medicine for some).
People that would still be alive, are dead. What else can I say?

http://www.chirobase.org/01General/modde.html
(fun little paper here by a chiro, perhaps "mainstream medicine" planted him to discredit chiropractic "medicine" from within?)

[KichigaiNeko]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_medicine

"the majority of alternative medicine users appear to be doing so largely because "they find these healthcare alternatives to be more congruent with their own values, beliefs, and philosophical orientations toward health and life."

I prefer science based medicine. Data, trials, demonstrated effects etc, call me fucking crazy. I'd rather not have some monkey jacking with my spine if a more effective treatment is available.
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Chiropractic

"There is evidence that chiropractic can help alleviate symptoms of low back pain. There is no evidence that it can help with any other medical problems and may in fact cause harm. The theory behind chiropractic, specifically subluxation theory, is scientifically unsound. It seems likely that much of the benefit of chiropractic comes from the "laying on of hands" and listening to the patient. There is no reason to believe this is any better than standard massage therapy, which may be considerably safer.

That's nice...you are repeating what I've been trying to say ...Thankyou

Given the non-scientific theories underlying chiropractic, and its poor results, it should be classified as a pseudoscience."

Seems to fall within the purvey of CAM to me, which is demonstrably synonymous with "bullshit". At least two posters here (myself being one) have LOST LOVED ONES due to CAM (which replaces actual medicine for some).
People that would still be alive, are dead. What else can I say?

You can't and use it as a scapegoat?? How the hell should I know?? I failed claivoyance in High school/ college

http://www.chirobase.org/01General/modde.html
(fun little paper here by a chiro, perhaps "mainstream medicine" planted him to discredit chiropractic "medicine" from within?)

Why bother?? You won't be convinced and have already formed your opinions...

So what is the next subject you are going to explore??

[theVOID]

My uncle went the CAM route, and then stopped availing himself of effective treatment entirely (the potions didn't make him feel like shit). Easy to fill in the rest.

The purveyors of magic elixirs should be held accountable for the effects of their treatments in the same way that actual medical professionals are held accountable.

It's more an issue of fraud in my view, making claims that CAM treatments cure/treat the symptoms of x when in fact they do not is no different to saying than a ponzy scheme is an investment - This in my view is different to medical competency, when someone fails to deliver an appropriate application of a proven treatment.

Perhaps you could find them guilty of both fraud and malpractice, but I think you'd have a hard time making the case for the former in most circumstances, except in regards to cases like Acupuncture deaths where needles through the heart or lungs have resulted in fatalities.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2010/o...re-needles

[The Grand Nudger]

You're absolutely right, I have formed an opinion. Years of trails, studies, and science based medicine have shown to be effective at treating or curing illness. There is data to back this up, and that data is constantly under review. Nothing short of absolute fraud and conspiracy on the part of the entire medical establishment would explain a reality in which chiropractic medicine had a greater, or more cumulative effect than traditional treatments, not to mention a lower factor of risk. Now, if you could point me to some evidence to the contrary I would have to reevaluate that (as would medical science). Do you access to this sort of data, reports of credible medical trials, or even an underlying principle upon which chiropractic medicine would operate?

I'm not asking you these things to belittle you, but because they are important. An accurate representation of physical reality is of the utmost importance in medicine as oftentimes peoples lives are on the line. There may be benefits to "traditional" or "alternative" treatments that have yet to be represented. If there are, they need to be researched in a credible fashion. Postulating cosmic forces or "holistic well-being" is great, but eventually you have to produce results.

(Yes people seek out CAM for things that aren't life-threatening. Why not medical treatment shown to be effective? MED/CAM you'll still be out money, the only difference is that with one you'll have received actual treatment{risk not considered})

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RE: VOID

It isn't fraud. You see we have some really choice laws here that allow these people to make fantastic claims in doublespeak. Most CAM is laced with disclaimers. So they are not technically defrauding anyone. (though I agree that in effect they are)

[downbeatplumb]

My wife believes in the healing powe of crystals, some bullshit about the 'vibrations'.

She seems happy so I wont try to give her the facts and end up in a big row........again.

[The Grand Nudger]

Yeah you gotta pick your battles with the missus. (I run a formula, if the cost of a a battle is greater than the amount of sexual favors that might be granted should I keep my mouth shut...I do.)

[salty]

My wife believes in the healing powe of crystals, some bullshit about the 'vibrations'.

She seems happy so I wont try to give her the facts and end up in a big row........again.

LOL!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PamKkK2V5sk

[KichigaiNeko]

You're absolutely right, I have formed an opinion. Years of trails, studies, and science based medicine have shown to be effective at treating or curing illness. There is data to back this up, and that data is constantly under review. Nothing short of absolute fraud and conspiracy on the part of the entire medical establishment would explain a reality in which chiropractic medicine had a greater, or more cumulative effect than traditional treatments, not to mention a lower factor of risk.

Now YOU hold your fucking rant right there charlie horse!! I have NEVER said that chiropractic ALONE is BETTER than mainstream medicine. I have said that you are talking about a system that does not exist here in Oz where mainstream medicine is using CAM in appropriate situations and the wholier than thou crap of CAM IS FRAUD AND SHOULD BE BANNED is not helpful as is ALL MAINSTREAM MEDICINE IS HARMFUL AND SHOULD BE BANNED is also unhelpful

I'm not asking you these things to belittle you, but because they are important. An accurate representation of physical reality is of the utmost importance in medicine as oftentimes peoples lives are on the line.

So there are reports and scientific evidence that physio therapy is proven to heal / cure?? I am thinking {that for me } I am taking chiro/ physio/ massage/ osteopathy etc and lumping them all together in this CAM concept of mechanical physiology treatment.

There may be benefits to "traditional" or "alternative" treatments that have yet to be represented. If there are, they need to be researched in a credible fashion. Postulating cosmic forces or "holistic well-being" is great, but eventually you have to produce results.
(Yes people seek out CAM for things that aren't life-threatening. Why not medical treatment shown to be effective?

Because the medical treatment that is supposedly shown to be effective is not and is detrimental for that particular individual?? Because they get just as good a night sleep from a cup of Chamomile Tea as they do from say any OTC sleeping pill as per this page http://www.sleeping-with-a-sleeping-diso...pills.html

Now before you go off on a tange-rant AGAIN; I am speaking from my own personal experience. Many mainstream medications cause more dramas for me than the actual illness I have no idea why and neither do my General Practitioners all 20 of them over a ~20year period. I have to take much less than the 'Recommended' therapeutic dose as per pharmaceutical companies suggest. And yet Zen Badger defies the WHO medical science recommendations by being far healthier than his BMI suggests and has to take a slightly higher dose than recommended for his BMI. Are there studies for this anomaly?? As I refuse to think that we are the ONLY people on the planet presenting in this fashion

MED/CAM you'll still be out money, the only difference is that with one you'll have received actual treatment{risk not considered})

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So you are saying that should your lady go to a "REAL PHYSIO" she will be taking risks but not really getting any "treatment"??



As I have said before Rhythm...I agree with you that the 'New Age' mumbojumbo "CAM" remedies are dangerous for those who seriously require mainstream diagnosis and treatment. There are also those who refuse any treatment what so ever let alone go to a {Here we call them General Practitioners} local Doctor for a referral to a Specialist.

But like religion we have these "Traditional Therapies" and yes I personally would like to see some serious study into them... why do they work/ not work? Why only certain "Traditional medicines" work for CALD people and not ALL people?? What is going on here (medically- mentally-neurologically?) And what of this Halo treatment for asthma..why does that appear to work?? Are there serious studies into it?? Nope not yet and I am wondering if there ever will be because of the monopoly of the pharmacologically biased mainstream medicine that is the "Tried and True" method you are so strongly supporting.

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Now THERE is another "CAM" thing...many psycologists and GP's here are recommending Meditation as a complenentary adjunct treatment... hmmm ya gotta focus on something..may as well be a crystal??