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RE: Potter to the clay
September 5, 2011 at 8:30 am
(This post was last modified: September 5, 2011 at 8:34 am by The Grand Nudger.)
Ryft asking people to leave books aside..lol? We have this idea that human beings aren't to be treated as property, and that anyone who does so is obviously morally repugnant. If we were to assume a god exists (and we wanted this god to be superior to ourselves) we would expect it to have a better developed sense of morality (or at least as well developed) as ourselves. To assume this god exists...one has to ignore "The Book".
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Potter to the clay
September 5, 2011 at 1:58 pm
(This post was last modified: September 5, 2011 at 1:59 pm by Ryft.)
(September 5, 2011 at 7:50 am)ElDinero Wrote: Human beings are not property.
He wanted to explore the question supposing this God exists. Since your answer supposes this God does not exist, it is outside the context of the question. (That is to say, given the existence of this God, which his question posits, human beings are indeed property—not of other human beings but of God.)
(September 5, 2011 at 7:50 am)ElDinero Wrote: I don't acknowledge anybody's right over my life.
Refusing to acknowledge X has no bearing on whether or not you are X. The latter is the question, not the former. And, again, it is a question that supposes the existence of the God in Francis Chan's reference to the Potter.
(September 5, 2011 at 7:57 am)frankiej Wrote: I would say he doesn't have the right to treat us in whatever way he likes.
It is not enough to claim that God does not have the right if the claim is without an explanation of why not. Given the existence of this God, as the question posits, WHY does he not have this right? The parent analogy fails because parents do not have the Potter relationship to their children that this God has to us.
(September 5, 2011 at 8:30 am)Rhythm Wrote: Ryft asking people to leave books aside... lol?
I am only accommodating the OP, who does not have the book with him to cite the relevant pages. Since this makes it difficult to interact with Francis Chan's argument, which the OP indicated, we have to set it aside and instead deal with the question as the OP posited it.
(September 5, 2011 at 8:30 am)Rhythm Wrote: We have this idea that human beings aren't to be treated as property—
—by fellow human beings, and for a myriad of good reasons. But extending this idea to include God is an extrapolation in dire need of legitimate justification.
(September 5, 2011 at 8:30 am)Rhythm Wrote: If we were to assume a god exists...
But we were not asked to assume a god exists. We were asked to assume that the God behind the Potter analogy exists.
Man is a rational animal who always loses his temper when
called upon to act in accordance with the dictates of reason.
(Oscar Wilde)
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RE: Potter to the clay
September 5, 2011 at 2:00 pm
(This post was last modified: September 5, 2011 at 2:03 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
I refuse to be property. There you are, fully justified. Call it an axiom. A presupposition.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Potter to the clay
September 5, 2011 at 2:21 pm
(September 5, 2011 at 1:58 pm)Ryft Wrote: It is not enough to claim that God does not have the right if the claim is without an explanation of why not. Given the existence of this God, as the question posits, WHY does he not have this right? The parent analogy fails because parents do not have the Potter relationship to their children that this God has to us.
That being said, I think the potter to the clay analogy is a bit shit, if you don't mind me saying, as the relationship between a living thing and an inanimate object is not comparable to the relationship between two living things.
Emotion is the main problem. So, as it is obvious that our emotions exist, does God's? or is he emotionless... That is the only way I can see God doing what he would see fit with us.
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RE: Potter to the clay
September 5, 2011 at 2:52 pm
(September 5, 2011 at 2:21 pm)frankiej Wrote: That being said, I think the Potter to the clay analogy is a bit shit, if you don't mind me saying, as the relationship between a living thing and an inanimate object is not comparable to the relationship between two living things.
I agree that it is not comparable, for the difference between us and God in order of being is far, far greater than the difference between a living thing and an inanimate object. However, the distinction being made in the Potter analogy is one of relationship, not order of being; consequently, "emotions" is not any problem, much less the main one.
Man is a rational animal who always loses his temper when
called upon to act in accordance with the dictates of reason.
(Oscar Wilde)
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RE: Potter to the clay
September 5, 2011 at 2:57 pm
hmm, perhaps. I just usually see emotions as a problem... Especially with women  
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RE: Potter to the clay
September 5, 2011 at 2:59 pm
The difference between ourselves and god is claimed to be great.
claimed is the operative.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Potter to the clay
September 6, 2011 at 1:59 pm
(September 5, 2011 at 2:00 pm)Rhythm Wrote: I refuse to be property. There you are, fully justified. Call it an axiom. A presupposition.
How do your children fare as property or your children?
Nobody wants to be property. I guess it comes down to who you belong to or the power you have to save yourself.
"Its not what your looking at that matters, its what you see." -Henry David Thoreau
♪Oh, I get lost in my mind Lost, I get lost I get Lost in my mind Lost in my Mind Yes, I get lost in my mind Lost, I get lost I get lost I get lost Oh, I get♪ -The Head and the Heart
"You are wise, witty and wonderful, but you spend too much time reading this sort of stuff.”- Frank Crane
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RE: Potter to the clay
September 6, 2011 at 2:01 pm
(This post was last modified: September 6, 2011 at 2:13 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
They aren't my property. You think children are property? They're my children by accident of birth, not by right of ownership. One has absolutely nothing to do with the other. Your "gotcha" attempts are weak. I belong to myself, and I'm the only one who can "save" or "damn" myself. I take responsibility for my actions, don't imagine an external aggressor, and do things for my own reason and purpose without thought of unearthly rewards. Any evil I have is my own and not part of some demons pyschodrama, and any goodness I've cultivated can be firmly laid upon me without invoking some fairy that imbued me with it. That you believe yourself to be powerless in your own "salvation" is your crutch, not mine. That's what "it comes down to".
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Potter to the clay
September 6, 2011 at 2:02 pm
If you think of children as property then you are deeply disturbed
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