[Serious] Please convince me gender is binary

[Yonadav]

Hmmmm.

It seems to me that you identify as female, and only as that.  Is this not the case?

It seems to me that I told you nobody should live their life feeling trapped in order to maintain the narratives of the people around them.  Did you think that was a bigoted statement?

No one who studies LGBTQ issues believes that "gender is binary".

You made that up. Transsexuals, by definition, see gender as binary. In fact, it is almost impossible for a person to get a letter recommending SRS  from  a psychiatrist who specializes in gender identity issues, unless their client has a binary view of gender. If the client doesn't have a sense of identity that is exclusively male or female, then a letter recommending SRS is extremely unlikely.

[bennyboy]

No one who studies LGBTQ issues believes that "gender is binary".

I've seen interviews in which gay or trans people say things like "I also believe there are two genders-- I just happen not to identify with the one assigned to me at birth." You, unless I'm mistaken, seem to identify exclusively as female. That means that male and female still mean something to you.

As I mentioned before, I would suspect that at least some trans people might not benefit from the idea of non-binary gender. What's the point of identifying and expressing as female, and going through all the hard times and heart breaks that entails, when the next person over says that the whole concept of gender is completely arbitrary anyway?

[Jehanne]

No one who studies LGBTQ issues believes that "gender is binary".

You made that up. Transsexuals, by definition, see gender as binary. In fact, it is almost impossible for a person to get a letter recommending SRS  from  a psychiatrist who specializes in gender identity issues, unless their client has a binary view of gender. If the client doesn't have a sense of identity that is exclusively male or female, then a letter recommending SRS is extremely unlikely.

Pangender is a non-binary gender defined as being more than one gender. A pangender person may consider themselves a member of all genders.[1] The prefix pan is Greek and means "all".[1] Pangender is a kind of third gender, much like bigender, trigender, or genderqueer.[2] Pangender individuals may identify with gender inclusive or gender neutral pronouns instead of gendered ones (such as she/he or her/him).

Wikipedia -- Pangender

[Yonadav]

You made that up. Transsexuals, by definition, see gender as binary. In fact, it is almost impossible for a person to get a letter recommending SRS  from  a psychiatrist who specializes in gender identity issues, unless their client has a binary view of gender. If the client doesn't have a sense of identity that is exclusively male or female, then a letter recommending SRS is extremely unlikely.

Pangender is a non-binary gender defined as being more than one gender. A pangender person may consider themselves a member of all genders.[1] The prefix pan is Greek and means "all".[1] Pangender is a kind of third gender, much like bigender, trigender, or genderqueer.[2] Pangender individuals may identify with gender inclusive or gender neutral pronouns instead of gendered ones (such as she/he or her/him).

Wikipedia -- Pangender

In my experience, this issue is used to harass transsexuals. Gays, lesbians, and transfetishists spend a lot of time trying to tell transsexuals that they aren't really men or women, and that they are an other gender. Just because the GLBT community offered you koolaid doesn't mean that you had to drink it.

When someone who likes to mix it up tells me that they are non-binary, I accept it. But when they try to assign non-binary identities to people upon whom that identity is not welcome, I drive stakes through their hearts. I don't use my brakes when I see them crossing the road. If I see them standing close to the edge, I give them a little push. And if I see that something horrible is about to happen to them, I don't shout a warning.

[The Grand Nudger]

It would be more accurate to state that some trans see gender as binary for the same reason that we see 'other than a/x" -as- trans in those non binary cultures just as we see "other than a/x" as trans in our own.  The specific contents of a gender construct put pressure on language and categorization.

I'm not familiar with the specifics of how gay people are shitty to trans people, but it doesn't surprise me to hear that they're shitty to trans people in the exact same way that everyone else who wants to be shitty to trans people are.

[Jehanne]

I consider myself to be the following; 70% female, 20% male, and 10% guilt. (Or, in other words, 20% male/80% female.)

[bennyboy]

I consider myself to be the following;  70% female, 20% male, and 10% guilt.  (Or, in other words, 20% male/80% female.)

First of all, let me say I'm ROFL right now.

Second, to me what you are describing is what I'd call a binary mix-- it's still only male and female, but one person is conscious of expressing both.  Since it's true that almost all people exhibit at least some traits that are nontypical for their birth gender, then I don't think that expressing a mix is a third gender: it's just being human. If there were traits that were unique ONLY to another gender but not to male or female, then I'd call that a third gender.

In some cases, things are much more balanced-- sometimes physically, definitely mentally, and that makes choosing one or the other as a label impossible.  I get that-- but I don't see that as a problem with gender ideas-- it's a problem with trying to fit a multi-axial definition under the umbrella of ANY single word.

I know for sure that "gay," for example, means different things to different homosexual men.  There are delicate, Ice Queen, special princess gotta-make-me-the-center-of-everything gay men, and there are ultra-butch, always-on-top badass gay mother-fuckers with big muscles, scary tattoos and stints in Iraq.  I'm pretty sure there are gay forums where people have fights over what it means to be gay, and demanding that their particular flavor of homosexuality needs to have its own special term.

But for the rest of us, "Did you know? Chad's gay" or "Jehanne is a trans woman" is about as far as I really care to know.  I won't ask you out on a date (well, at least we'd have to have some pretty damned life-changing conversations for me to do that, I'd guess), or try to set you up with my sister (unless I think she'd be into it).  If I want to know more, I'll ask.  But I don't want to have to do any more work than that: use new pronouns, try to remember each individual's special title, or so on.

In short, I don't want to have to consider the many different ways in which normally male and female characteristics might mix, and have dozens of special terms for them. There are much more important categories that I want to consider most of the time. The most important one is bennyboy-with-enough-money, and bennyboy-without-enough-money. I sometimes identify as the first, but I'd say the latter more accurately describes me.

[The Grand Nudger]

Your thoughts rarely exceed the confines of your wallet, so what?  The subject of the OPQ is broader and not at all related to your wallet.

[bennyboy]

Your thoughts rarely exceed the confines of your wallet, so what?  The subject of the OPQ is broader and not at all related to your wallet.

Because that was the essential point of my previous post. . . ?

[The Grand Nudger]

Yet another failure of the serious tag.