Libertarian left and right

[TheDarkestOfAngels]

Honestly, I thought this thread would be about something you mentioned on the Occupy Wall Street thread about there being 'left wing' and 'right wing' libertarians.
To that end, could someone explain to me the difference more precisely?

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

Overall, a bit too simplistic.

Eg

"Value". There are two concepts of value; extrinsic or 'use value' and 'intrinsic' ,which is an illusion. Economic value is based on the illusion that an object has intrinsic worth.



Libertarianism: Before coming to this forum,I had barely heard the word.The people I ran across here who described themselves as "Libertarians" tended to be American. THEIR form of Libertarianism was based on an extreme form of laissez faire economics, resulting in a social Darwinism of "I'm OK Jack,fuck you".


Why the need for simple definitions for complex ideas?

[reverendjeremiah]

Honestly, I thought this thread would be about something you mentioned on the Occupy Wall Street thread about there being 'left wing' and 'right wing' libertarians.
To that end, could someone explain to me the difference more precisely?

Well, you can find out where you stand by taking this test:

http://www.politicalcompass.org/test

You have 4 basic positions in politics reflecting social and economic position.

Authoritarian Socialist = The Stalin type
Authoritarian Capitalist = The george W. bush type
Anti-authoritarian Socialist = The Gandhi type
Anti-authoritarian Capitalist = The Milton Friedman type

---

Overall, a bit too simplistic.

Eg

"Value". There are two concepts of value; extrinsic or 'use value' and 'intrinsic' ,which is an illusion. Economic value is based on the illusion that an object has intrinsic worth.



Libertarianism: Before coming to this forum,I had barely heard the word.The people I ran across here who described themselves as "Libertarians" tended to be American. THEIR form of Libertarianism was based on an extreme form of laissez faire economics, resulting in a social Darwinism of "I'm OK Jack,fuck you".


Why the need for simple definitions for complex ideas?

Because those simple definitions come together to form a complex position, such as left libertarian. Center left libertarian, etc...

[TheDarkestOfAngels]

I seem to be in the same area as the Dahli Lama and Ghandi. I feel I'm in good company. Though this doesn't answer my question (I've taken this test before.)

My question concerns the idea of a ' left' and 'right' libertarian - libertarian being the idea that government should be minimized, but not eliminated (that would be an anarchist).
I've always viewed this as being the standard libertarian position in politics with differences mostly having to do with what this minimalist government's exact responsibilities are to its citizens.
These usually include things like police, fire, disaster relief, military, and judicial applications but just about everything else to be left to the free market.

What I thought was unusual was the idea of a 'left wing" and "right wing" libertarian and I was wondering what the basic ideaology would be that would differientiate between these two sorts of libertarians.

According to your compass, this would put all libertarians squarely toward the right-bottom of the compass regardless of the minor quibbles.

[reverendjeremiah]

I seem to be in the same area as the Dahli Lama and Ghandi. I feel I'm in good company. Though this doesn't answer my question (I've taken this test before.)

My question concerns the idea of a ' left' and 'right' libertarian - libertarian being the idea that government should be minimized, but not eliminated (that would be an anarchist).
I've always viewed this as being the standard libertarian position in politics with differences mostly having to do with what this minimalist government's exact responsibilities are to its citizens.
These usually include things like police, fire, disaster relief, military, and judicial applications but just about everything else to be left to the free market.

What I thought was unusual was the idea of a 'left wing" and "right wing" libertarian and I was wondering what the basic ideaology would be that would differientiate between these two sorts of libertarians.

According to your compass, this would put all libertarians squarely toward the right-bottom of the compass regardless of the minor quibbles.

this is my compass

you are pretty much correct with right libertarians, although some may have no problem with firemen and such. It just depends on how far right into the corner they are. some may claim that firemen should be privatised, and then charge you as soon as they put your fire out.

The libertarian left, on the other hand, especially where I am at on the compass, dont trust police officials of ANY type. Even their unions (if you can call them that) vote for people in the top right bracket of the compass. Firemen are fine as well as ambulance emergency workers. Healthcare shold be absolutely free, equal, and with all options intact (such as abortion, willing euthanasia, etc.) Insurance companies are one of the big enemies, as they influence the government to take societies freedoms away while they find ways to profit on peoples misery and suffering. Standing millitary is distasteful, and millitary should only be used to fight back an invasion only, and no more. Left Libertarians are for open borders with no nationalism, instead of being a "country", they are a community of humans regardless of race, religion, birthplace, etc.. In fact nationalism is distasteful to left libs, as they see it as a precursor to minorities getting ready to get screwed. Money is dispised by left libs as the big cause of the problems we face today, and it cheapens human worth and labor. government should only be the occasional meeting of labor trades to discuss minimal directions for progress and then disbanded. No one is rich, no one is poor, everyone shares in the local commodities for better or for worse. Banks are shut down. Money changers and stock markets are ran off for cheapening and leeching off of the labor of the masses. It is a commune of sorts, but not the "communism" of Stalin. Stalin was VERY authoritarian. Left libertarians distrust political and economic power, and therefore try to remove them from society as much as possible. Drugs are completely legalized, as well as adult concensual sex and pornography. Guns are completely legalized regardless of automatic or not, but are usually frowned upon. Censorship does not exist, education is a top priority as well as skilled craftmanship and creativity. All people take their equal share of the pie. Retirement and health are guarenteed for life no questions asked.

Thats left libertarian.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-syndicalism

We grow tired of being called communists, marxists, or Stalinist. We do not support state socialism (thats the top left of the compass), nor do we support capitalism. we support open ended and non-authoritarian co-operative economic systems.

[Ashendant]

Honestly, I thought this thread would be about something you mentioned on the Occupy Wall Street thread about there being 'left wing' and 'right wing' libertarians.
To that end, could someone explain to me the difference more precisely?

Well, you can find out where you stand by taking this test:

http://www.politicalcompass.org/test

You have 4 basic positions in politics reflecting social and economic position.

Authoritarian Socialist = The Stalin type
Authoritarian Capitalist = The george W. bush type
Anti-authoritarian Socialist = The Gandhi type
Anti-authoritarian Capitalist = The Milton Friedman type

---

Because those simple definitions come together to form a complex position, such as left libertarian. Center left libertarian, etc...

I prefer this one it's much shorter altrough sometimes not as accurate


Also i think you got the economic scale and the social scale mixed up

Libertarians and statists is about who controls the economy, while conservatives(right) and liberals(left) is about social freedoms

[reverendjeremiah]

No..Im pretty much on the mark with the compass I used. Of course there are other compasses available.. Feel free to share the links if you bring them up so i can try them.

P.S. - I cant see you image..only a dot.

[Ashendant]

No..Im pretty much on the mark with the compass I used. Of course there are other compasses available.. Feel free to share the links if you bring them up so i can try them.

P.S. - I cant see you image..only a dot.

Yeah nevermind i got it wrong...

and forget about the image it ended stupid

Anyway here the best political scale



Here the legends be

Anarchy (Liberal: Post-Revolution Embryonic Society) (Conservative: Lawless Wasteland)
Authoritarian Democracy (Liberal: Mouth-Breathing Creationists) (Conservative: Slightly Oppressive But A Little Discipline Never Hurt Anyone State)
Benevolent Dictatorship (Liberal: Temporary Liberal State of Emergency) (Conservative: Temporary Conservative State of Emergency)
Capitalist Paradise (Liberal: Corporate Slave State) (Conservative: Decent Hard Working Self-Starters)
Capitalizt (Liberal: Self-Congratulatory Merchant Bankers) (Conservative: Freedom-Loving Libertarians)
Civil Rights Lovefest (Liberal: Brave Progressives) (Conservative: Nation-Hating Hippies)
Compulsory Consumerist State (Liberal: Consumerist Wage Drones) (Conservative: Aspirational Workers State)
Conservative Democracy (Liberal: Conservative Hell) (Conservative: Conservative Paradise)
Corporate Bordello (Liberal: Blood-Sucking Capitalist Leeches) (Conservative: Patriotic Business Zone)
Corporate Police State (Liberal: Halliburton) (Conservative: Entrepreneurial Freedom Zone)
Corrupt Dictatorship (Liberal: Well-Meaning Dictatorship) (Conservative: Corrupt Liberal Dictatorship)
Democratic Socialists (Liberal: Ordinary Caring Intelligent World Citizens) (Conservative: Hell)
Father/Mother Knows Best State (Liberal: Suspiciously Conservative Democracy) (Conservative: Suspiciously Liberal Dictatorship)
Free Market Paradise (Liberal: Randriods) (Conservative: Paradise)
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy (Liberal: Fascists) (Conservative: Communists)
Iron Fist Consumerists (Liberal: Imperialist Pig Dog Oppressors) (Conservative: Champions of Commerce)
Iron Fist Socialists (Liberal: Equality and Tolerance Society) (Conservative: Inevitably Bloody Results of Liberal Ideals Mugged by Reality)
Left-Leaning College State (Liberal: Paradise) (Conservative: Deluded Tax and Spend Hypocrites)
Left-Wing Utopia (Liberal: Utopia) (Conservative: Drugged Out Hippies)
Liberal Democratic Socialists (Liberal: Open-Minded Education State) (Conservative: Ivory Tower Reality Disconnect Zone)
Libertarian Police State (Liberal: Slightly Overzealous Peoples Democracy) (Conservative: Government Enforced Political Correctness Society)
Moralistic Democracy (Liberal: Narrow-Minded Backwoodsy Bigots) (Conservative: Ordinary Decent Hard Working People)
New York Times Democracy (Liberal: Corporate-Dominated Sham Democracy) (Conservative: New York Crimes So-Called Democracy)
Psychotic Dictatorship (Liberal: Fascist Dictatorship) (Conservative: Communist Dictatorship)
Right-Wing Utopia (Liberal: Corrupt Thieving Uneducated Fascist Fundamentalists) (Conservative: Utopia)
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise (Liberal: Normal) (Conservative: Gay Marriage State)
Tyranny By Majority (Liberal: Tyranny by Bourgeois) (Conservative: Thieves)

[Darth]

I don't get this newfangled three dimensional scale =(

[Violet]

I think you're all missing the point here, guys. The only definition that really matters is this: What is a pizza?

And the answer will forever, and universally be: Perfection... with cheese.

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Anyway... my choices aren't represented on charts like the one revvie presented